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Thread: Independence Referendum in Northern Ireland.

  1. #21
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    Yes, I hadn't properly understood your " a referendum in both the RofI and NI." as being a single referendum for the whole island. I remember some people at the time of the Scottish referendum demanding to know why England couldn't have its own referendum on the same subject - that one was baffling: what would different results in the two referendums involve?

    Quote Originally Posted by Major Sinic View Post
    The borders of NI aka 'the six counties' are absolutely clear and have been since declared independence in 1921. While the agreement itself was in my view a fudge;aren't most such agreements? If the whole population of Ireland voted in a referendum, the answer to your point 'that population' is clearly answered and means the whole of population of an entire island.
    I describe the border as 'gerrymandered' because it was left there in order to contain a unionist majority and the hinterland that it thought it needed for economic viability, irrespective of the wishes of two whole counties and a city that had a nationalist majority. Incidentally, I discover while checking that up that Loughs Foyle and Carlingord, at the two ends of the border, are still disputed.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partit..._the_partition
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Boundary_Commission

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by P. de Bierkabouter View Post
    I remember some people at the time of the Scottish referendum demanding to know why England couldn't have its own referendum on the same subject
    England can have its own referendum on leaving the uk , or ending it any time it likes. What it cant do is have a say on any scottish/irish /welsh referendum on the same subject as we are all differing countries.

    It would be like the rest of europe demanding a say on england/uk leaving the eu , which would of course be absurd.

    Im sure you are wise enough to understand this though .


    I describe the border as 'gerrymandered' because it was left there in order to contain a unionist majority and the hinterland that it thought it needed for economic viability, irrespective of the wishes of two whole counties and a city that had a nationalist majority. Incidentally, I discover while checking that up that Loughs Foyle and Carlingord, at the two ends of the border, are still disputed.
    Totally agree. The border was gerrymandered , because no such border had existed in the north at any time in history going back as far as scholastic research could penetrate. Even the old kingdom of "uladh" , or ulster , consisted of nine modern irish counties , three of which are in the republic .

    ...and of course the north of ireland was never at anypoint till the early twentieth century the centre of westminster or british rule over ireland , that was traditionally and historically dublin.

    Northern ireland was once the centre of the old gaelic ireland and the area that long resisted english rule. Despite the fantasy stories you may encounter , the whole sectarian divide only gradually came into being from around the 1830`s onward .

    This idea that scottish /english planters went to northern ireland and have been resisting the native catholic irish since the early 17th century is nothing more than modern unionist fantasy.

    I have championed an indy referendum for northern ireland for a long time now , and irrespective of brexit , i firmly believe it is high time to right an old wrong that was perpetrated on the irish 100 years ago out of nothing but mere spite.

    Johnson could come out of this looking very good if he gives the go ahead for an irish referendum , it gets the eu and the republic off his back , starts negotiations on a deal with the eu , saves billions in subsidy and security , quashes remainers in one hit , guarentees a tory victory , even a landslide in the next GE , and the only people with their noses out of joint are remainers and a few tired old unionists who cant see the writing on the wall for the uk as it stands.
    "Pour l’Angleterre … il n’y a pas d’alliance qui tienne, ni de traité qui vaille, ni la vérité qui compte." Charles De Gaulle

    Alba gu brath An rud is fhiach a ghabhail, 's fhiach e iarraidh

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Major Sinic View Post
    Trukhari is in his belligerent manner suggests that the UK would throw NI under a bus. I fail to understand the validity of this provocative statement, when NI would only have its ties to the UK cut at their own behest following a referendum in both the RofI and NI. Equally safeguards can be put in place such as the retention of Stormont to govern matters within the six counties and the right of NI citizens to move, with financial and practical assistance, to the UK. Seems to offer more than the Scots are pleading for, or is England throwing them under a bus as well when they get their Indy2?

    Obviously the £10+b provided to NI annually in subsidies would stop, and as bona fide members of the EU I have no doubt that Brussels would be delighted to assume that responsibility.

    Is it really so wrong for England to put the interests of its people first, just as other the constituent nations do in Scotland, N.Ireland and to a lesser extent Wales. Does anyone truly think that the SNP, DUP, Sinn Fein or Plaid Cymru has the slightest interest, thought or care, about the people of England? I don't!

    Personally speaking I don't see the UK surviving beyond another decade. Far better to have equal and independent neighbours than smaller neighbours who feel that they are subordinate vassal states to England. Exactly the same reasoning applies with the Brexit majority regarding the EU.
    I think the quotes are mixed up as the last sentence in the post you quoted wasn't by me.

    Anyhow, I guess you can put your own nation (or sub nation within the UK) first and stuff everyone else, but the way I heard is summed up yesterday was that many people think that both the UK and Ireland have a moral obligation to honour the GFI, and the whole underlying principle of it is that both communities in NI are respected and allowed to live there, seeing themselves as either Irish or UK as they please (or both).

    It's also depends if you are talking moral or legal responsibility. For sure, England could get rid of everyone else and say "it's not our problem", but there is an argument that England/UK has a moral responsibility on the basis that quite often we (our prior governments and ancestors) created those problems in the first place. It's quite notable if you think about it that such a high percentage of the major flashpoints in the world, if you trace the history back, you will find the UK with it's mitts deep in the root of it.

    Notably in the case of NI, if we had not interfered in the first place, the NI part wouldn't be full of Unionists in the first place (very simplified view to make my point).

    Now of course you can say, that's not my problem it was done by my Grandparents or whatever, but walking away and saying it's Ireland's problem would arguably be fairly reprehensible.

    Edit: Also - there are actually lots of people in other UK countries than England who do care about England and the Union, and have close family relationships and friendships with English people. Saying that they don't care is a little simplified - we often tend to characterise millions of people as all thinking the same when it's not the case.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Javert View Post
    I think the quotes are mixed up as the last sentence in the post you quoted wasn't by me.

    Anyhow, I guess you can put your own nation (or sub nation within the UK) first and stuff everyone else, but the way I heard is summed up yesterday was that many people think that both the UK and Ireland have a moral obligation to honour the GFI, and the whole underlying principle of it is that both communities in NI are respected and allowed to live there, seeing themselves as either Irish or UK as they please (or both).

    It's also depends if you are talking moral or legal responsibility. For sure, England could get rid of everyone else and say "it's not our problem", but there is an argument that England/UK has a moral responsibility on the basis that quite often we (our prior governments and ancestors) created those problems in the first place. It's quite notable if you think about it that such a high percentage of the major flashpoints in the world, if you trace the history back, you will find the UK with it's mitts deep in the root of it.

    Notably in the case of NI, if we had not interfered in the first place, the NI part wouldn't be full of Unionists in the first place (very simplified view to make my point).

    Now of course you can say, that's not my problem it was done by my Grandparents or whatever, but walking away and saying it's Ireland's problem would arguably be fairly reprehensible.

    Edit: Also - there are actually lots of people in other UK countries than England who do care about England and the Union, and have close family relationships and friendships with English people. Saying that they don't care is a little simplified - we often tend to characterise millions of people as all thinking the same when it's not the case.
    Your response seems broadly in line with the one from Trukhari. My reply applies to both. Providing NI with options regarding its future is not necessarily putting England first or suggesting NI can get stuffed. Nevertheless England has as much right as any other country in the UK to consider its own interests and to prioritise them just as Scotland and NI can and does.

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