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Thread: Should pledges be honoured?

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Javert View Post
    In addition to the previous points, the Labour party's manifesto in 2017 ruled out a no deal Brexit, and said that if they were elected to government, they would negotiate a different better Brexit deal instead. They didn't win and they are not the government, so arguably their manifesto from 2017 is irrelevant.

    If you are arguing that they should go by their manifesto, you are then arguing they should have voted for the May WA - supporting a no deal Brexit is directly against the Labour manifesto.
    ok then why didnt they vote for mays withdrawal agreement , as the only deal on the table.?

    The answer is the whole no deal brexit argument is bollocks. They dont want any kind of brexit as they have shown , and cannot be trusted with the electorates vote in any future general election.

    Their lies always catches up with them , thats why they went from being the party of scotland to being practically wiped out up here.

    I expect the english electorate to similarly have little sympathy for their lies come the next vote.
    "Pour l’Angleterre … il n’y a pas d’alliance qui tienne, ni de traité qui vaille, ni la vérité qui compte." Charles De Gaulle

    Alba gu brath An rud is fhiach a ghabhail, 's fhiach e iarraidh

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by thomas View Post
    clearly its not nonsense , whatever the number a large part of labours vote , estimated around 5 million people , voted brexit in many northern english constituencies like lisa nandys.

    Thats why they are trying to ride two horses , and failing , at the same time , because if the leadership abandons all pretence about enacting brexit , they fear a backlash in many of their leave consituencies.




    You are spinning a false narrative yet again.

    The pubic ,or the majority knows referendums except the av referendum arent binding.

    However this doesnt mean they will forgive a party or political parties who have disresepected their vote and promised to implement a referendum beforehand they are now not.

    Think about it like a game of cards javert. Do you play cards?

    To my knowledge there is no law that says you cant cheat at cards , you wont be banged up in prison for cheating.

    However , when you play , you know the rules of the game beforehand , and cheating is considered extremely bad form and frowned upon.

    People then get angry , refuse to abide by the game and before you know it chaos has erupted.

    Just because you arent technically breaking the law doesnt make it right or acceptable.
    Are you kidding? You seem to have forgotten the tactics used by the leave campaign to win the 2016 referendum, and also the tactics used to win the 2014 Scotland referendum. If that's not like cheating at cards, what is?

    Using the analogy of cheating at cards to apply only to those who won't passively accept that leaving the EU is the chosen path and we must just go ahead and jump of the cliff, is ridiculous.

    We even found out in the last week that the Union side in the 2014 referendum got the Queen to intervene on their behalf - I've no clue why there aren't calls for it to be rerun just based on that fact alone.

    But anyway, as you said in your prior post the only thing that matters to you is achieving Scottish independence, and all "logical" arguments on all other topics are developed based on that underlying assumption. You are worried that is Scotland achieves independence by a vote of 50.1%, you most definitely need to be able to tell the 49.9% who voted against it that they lost and have to just suck it up, and their opinions are no longer relevant. This is why you are now supporting English Brexit.

    After all, if the actual details of enacting Scottish independence turn out to be much more expensive, complex and difficult than expected, we can't have people thinking they might want to change their minds can we?

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Javert View Post
    Are you kidding? You seem to have forgotten the tactics used by the leave campaign to win the 2016 referendum, and also the tactics used to win the 2014 Scotland referendum. If that's not like cheating at cards, what is?
    .
    but funnily enough you havent once mentioned till now cheating going on in scotland in 2014 , and i havent heard you demanding a rerun of the scottish indyref because of it , funny that javert?

    Using the analogy of cheating at cards to apply only to those who won't passively accept that leaving the EU is the chosen path and we must just go ahead and jump of the cliff, is ridiculous.
    We voted to leave the eu in a fair and democratic referendum. You lost , so you are now trying everything you can think of and failing to cheat the winners out of the result.

    We even found out in the last week that the Union side in the 2014 referendum got the Queen to intervene on their behalf - I've no clue why there aren't calls for it to be rerun just based on that fact alone.
    So? This is news to you?

    We knew all this back in 2014 , i dont recall many english people calling for a re run of the scottish referendum becasue of it. We were told to pipe down jocks , accept you lost and get on with it.

    Imagine my surprise a mere two years later when english remainers tell me their referndum cant be implemented because they lost , and life is so unfair.


    But anyway, as you said in your prior post the only thing that matters to you is achieving Scottish independence, and all "logical" arguments on all other topics are developed based on that underlying assumption
    I didnt mention the word "logical". You have just inserted that into the conversation as ever .

    Thinking about it though , of course it s logical to fight for independence first , then worrry about all else afterwards.

    If you dont get indy first , you cant then be a normal country , and do all the normal things normal countries do as your wishes are forever at the mercy of another nation. Whats the point in worrying about brexit , or the latest policy on taxation , or having the queen as head of state , or wether scotland goes to war etc etc when no matter how you vote or who you vote for its your country decides that for us?

    I mean ffs , we voted 62% remain , and your country said tough , this is the uk , we voted out , so out we all go?

    Logical argument make no sense within this disunited kingdom , unless you are a unionist happy with the status quo.
    You are worried that is Scotland achieves independence by a vote of 50.1%, you most definitely need to be able to tell the 49.4% who voted against it that they lost and have to just suck it up, and their opinions are no longer relevant
    I have never told you or anyone else your opinion isnt relevant. I have clearly and precisely told you many times how you go about brexit is to implement the result , then campaign in the future for rejoining in a new referendum.

    You dont want to do that , you want to cheat your way and skip past democracy.

    This is why you are now supporting English Brexit.
    Of course brexit happily coincides with my political view.

    There you go again making a statement as if it is somehow a new revelation.

    Did i go around the whole of england forcing people to vote to leave?

    Did i force your main political prty to hold the referendum in the first place?

    Im offering my opinion , which is as valid if not more than yours that brexit should be enacted because thats the democratic will of the majority. Thats you dont like that is tough.

    Im certainly not jumping aboard your anti democratic cheaty bandwagon , and if you overturn this , as i have pointed out before your cheaty wee tactics and anti democratic stance will be used to attempt to stop us in future.
    "Pour l’Angleterre … il n’y a pas d’alliance qui tienne, ni de traité qui vaille, ni la vérité qui compte." Charles De Gaulle

    Alba gu brath An rud is fhiach a ghabhail, 's fhiach e iarraidh

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by thomas View Post
    clearly its not nonsense , whatever the number a large part of labours vote , estimated around 5 million people , voted brexit in many northern english constituencies like lisa nandys.

    Thats why they are trying to ride two horses , and failing , at the same time , because if the leadership abandons all pretence about enacting brexit , they fear a backlash in many of their leave consituencies.




    You are spinning a false narrative yet again.

    The pubic ,or the majority knows referendums except the av referendum arent binding.

    However this doesnt mean they will forgive a party or political parties who have disresepected their vote and promised to implement a referendum beforehand they are now not.

    Think about it like a game of cards javert. Do you play cards?

    To my knowledge there is no law that says you cant cheat at cards , you wont be banged up in prison for cheating.

    However , when you play , you know the rules of the game beforehand , and cheating is considered extremely bad form and frowned upon.

    People then get angry , refuse to abide by the game and before you know it chaos has erupted.

    Just because you arent technically breaking the law doesnt make it right or acceptable.
    Well said.

  5. #15
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    Why can't a political party change its mind when putting together a new manifesto? If you don't like it don't vote for them.

    The complexities and consequences of Brexit are better and more widely known than they were prior to the last general election. Political parties could get away with adopting politically expedient positions since the consequences of Brexit were less of a concern than the immediate risks of upsetting leave supporters drunk on the results of the referendum.

    Now that Brexit is an immediate concern the political landscape has shifted and the various parties can no longer obfuscate or run the risk of losing votes to parties with clearer positions.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trukhari View Post
    Why can't a political party change its mind when putting together a new manifesto? If you don't like it don't vote for them.

    The complexities and consequences of Brexit are better and more widely known than they were prior to the last general election. Political parties could get away with adopting politically expedient positions since the consequences of Brexit were less of a concern than the immediate risks of upsetting leave supporters drunk on the results of the referendum.

    Now that Brexit is an immediate concern the political landscape has shifted and the various parties can no longer obfuscate or run the risk of losing votes to parties with clearer positions.
    it can change its mind.

    Have you actually read the thread trukki.?

    Tell me what is labours official public position on brexit?

    Do you know?

    What it seems to me that people are getting the hump about is the vey fact labours position on brexit changes with the wind publicly , and they have no clear cut position. If they actually came right out and admitted what we all know , they are unequivocally supporting remaining in the eu by hook or by crook , and wish to disrespect peoples votes in 2016 , then at least we would respect them however grudgingly and vote accordingly.

    ...but they wont, because they are desperate to hold onto those 5 million leave votes , while courting remain votes ,effectively appearing to ride two conflicting horses at the same time.

    If you cant see how duplicitous this is to the voting public then more fool you.

    Dont come on here making this out its nothing more than a political party changing its mind. It isnt. Their minds havent changed from day one , its their lies people are taking issue with and why they actually stood on a brexit ticket in 2017 in the first place when they are completely opposed to brexit.
    "Pour l’Angleterre … il n’y a pas d’alliance qui tienne, ni de traité qui vaille, ni la vérité qui compte." Charles De Gaulle

    Alba gu brath An rud is fhiach a ghabhail, 's fhiach e iarraidh

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  8. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by thomas View Post

    Tell me what is labours official public position on brexit?

    Do you know?
    Even Robert Peston hasn't got a clue, nor has the Labour conference.
    https://www.itv.com/news/2019-09-22/...robert-peston/

    It's why we need written manifestos and a party committed to keeping to them, as far as possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thomas View Post
    it can change its mind.

    Have you actually read the thread trukki.?

    Tell me what is labours official public position on brexit?

    Do you know?

    What it seems to me that people are getting the hump about is the vey fact labours position on brexit changes with the wind publicly , and they have no clear cut position. If they actually came right out and admitted what we all know , they are unequivocally supporting remaining in the eu by hook or by crook , and wish to disrespect peoples votes in 2016 , then at least we would respect them however grudgingly and vote accordingly.

    ...but they wont, because they are desperate to hold onto those 5 million leave votes , while courting remain votes ,effectively appearing to ride two conflicting horses at the same time.

    If you cant see how duplicitous this is to the voting public then more fool you.

    Dont come on here making this out its nothing more than a political party changing its mind. It isnt. Their minds havent changed from day one , its their lies people are taking issue with and why they actually stood on a brexit ticket in 2017 in the first place when they are completely opposed to brexit.
    About the only thing I would add to that is the fact a massive majority of labour prospective candidates in 2017 all issued a central office (or in Wales where they hate Corbyn) a Welsh party office manifesto that unequivocally declared a need to respect the referendum result.

    A statement that got them elected to the house in preference to others who said other things, after which they wholeheartedly set about doing everything but keeping their manifesto commitment
    --
    "The Inland Revenue is not slow, and quite rightly, to take every advantage which is open to it under the Taxing Statutes for the purposes of depleting the taxpayer's pocket. And the taxpayer is in like manner entitled to be astute to prevent, so far as he honestly can, the depletion of his means by the Inland Revenue" (Lord Clyde: "Ayrshire Pullman Motor Services V Inland Revenue, 1929")

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  12. #19
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    What does honouring an agreement mean?

    In the case of the 2016 referendum, with its tiny majority . . . If David Cameron had stood outside No. 10 the day after the referendum and announced that despite the referendum result we would stay in the EU and he would not trigger Article 50 and that was the end of the matter, that would be dishonouring the referendum result.

    But Cameron ran away, Theresa may triggered Article 50 and we've now had 3 years of strife leading to the a coup by Boris Johnson and a suspension of democracy. We've been down the Brexit route, we can see it leads to disaster, the people need an opportunity to say whether they want to stay on the route to disaster or turn back. Luckily if we turn back, it doesn't look like we have to retrace the whole rocky road, there wouldn't be a lengthy un-Brexiting process.
    29,089,259 people did not say LEAVE

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyperduck Quack Quack View Post
    What does honouring an agreement mean?

    In the case of the 2016 referendum, with its tiny majority . . .
    I wish I had a pound in the bank the same number as that tiny majority you keep bleating on about. You're worse than Sheepbrain.

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