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Thread: What we might have if we revoke article 50

  1. #11
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    Veto on matters in the EU is being abolished in 2020 as I understand it. I've looked into sending Eu citizens back who are a burden on the UK, it's very difficult to prove. In the short term, Eu citizens are entitled to anything that UK citizens are entitled to.

  2. #12
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    You are not going to revoke the article 50, you cannot for a 90%.

    According to the EU, you can revoke the article 50 before the end of march. There is no problem.

    According to the UK, in order to revoke the article 50, you have to do another referendum hoping this time people will vote to remain, or you do have no nullify the referendum of the 2016, this is like to say "in our country the democracy is a joke".

    Go to explain to the 52% of people that now their vote is null.

    Also just as Cameron resignation, the present prime minister has to do the same, because a govern has to represent the majority of the people, and not the minority.

    I know UK is not a full democracy, but in democracy a govern is elected and can be there only as long it represent the majority of the people.

    By revoking the article 50, all you will get back is your EU membership as it was before.

    So i see

    - A new referendum or the nullification of the 2016 referendum.
    - A resignation from your current first minister.
    - A loss of image from your democracy and your union as well.
    - A lot of troubles from those who voted to leave.

    All of the above before the end march.

    I think there is no technical time before the end of march to even start to talk about revoking it. Regards.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jinset View Post
    You are not going to revoke the article 50, you cannot for a 90%.

    According to the EU, you can revoke the article 50 before the end of march. There is no problem.

    According to the UK, in order to revoke the article 50, you have to do another referendum hoping this time people will vote to remain, or you do have no nullify the referendum of the 2016, this is like to say "in our country the democracy is a joke".

    Go to explain to the 52% of people that now their vote is null.

    Also just as Cameron resignation, the present prime minister has to do the same, because a govern has to represent the majority of the people, and not the minority.

    I know UK is not a full democracy, but in democracy a govern is elected and can be there only as long it represent the majority of the people.

    By revoking the article 50, all you will get back is your EU membership as it was before.

    So i see

    - A new referendum or the nullification of the 2016 referendum.
    - A resignation from your current first minister.
    - A loss of image from your democracy and your union as well.
    - A lot of troubles from those who voted to leave.

    All of the above before the end march.

    I think there is no technical time before the end of march to even start to talk about revoking it. Regards.
    Also, the EU has said we have one deal and they won't open negotiations, so I don't see how Corbyn writing a letter can change that now.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by cassie View Post
    Veto on matters in the EU is being abolished in 2020 as I understand it. I've looked into sending Eu citizens back who are a burden on the UK, it's very difficult to prove. In the short term, Eu citizens are entitled to anything that UK citizens are entitled to.
    This is the sort of discussion I intended to provoke.

    The "2020" myth has done the rounds on FB and Twitter. Often as a king list of things that will happen in 2020 as a consequence of the Lisbon treaty.

    It has been comprehensively debunked by a lecturer in EU law with links to primary sources (the treaties)

    https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1...001654784.html

    The Uk's vetoes rest on 2 pillars.

    The first is that some actions require new treaties which have to be ratified by members. This the UK has a defacto veto on those matters.

    The second is that some vetoes and opt outs are defined in the treaties and thus cannot be removed without new treaties, which the UK has a defacto veto on.

    As for deporting EU citizens, the UK deports or refuses entry to around 5k a year.

    For the first 3 month an EU citizen is effectively a tourist. They cannot claim any benefits. They can use emergency healthcare which the UK can charge back to their "home" country (IIRC that continues for the duration of their stay)

    Regarding other benefits, they can only start to claim (some) benefits after 3 months at which point their treaty rights kick in.

    The ECJ has explicitly ruled that benefit tourism (eg a Romanian moving to Germany to claim various benefits) is not covered by FoM rights (Dano case)

    Over the long term EU citizens right become similar to UK ones in terms of benefits available (child benefit, disability benefit etc) but at that point they are contributing citizens so I'm not sure what the controversy is.

    EU migrants contribute several £bn more in taxes than they are allocated in benefits. In addition they are more likely to be employed and less likely to be retired (the over 65's are responsible for around 40% of health spending and over 65's cost several times more than under 50's in health spending).

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jinset View Post
    You are not going to revoke the article 50, you cannot for a 90%.

    According to the EU, you can revoke the article 50 before the end of march. There is no problem.

    According to the UK, in order to revoke the article 50, you have to do another referendum hoping this time people will vote to remain, or you do have no nullify the referendum of the 2016, this is like to say "in our country the democracy is a joke".

    Go to explain to the 52% of people that now their vote is null.

    Also just as Cameron resignation, the present prime minister has to do the same, because a govern has to represent the majority of the people, and not the minority.

    I know UK is not a full democracy, but in democracy a govern is elected and can be there only as long it represent the majority of the people.

    By revoking the article 50, all you will get back is your EU membership as it was before.

    So i see

    - A new referendum or the nullification of the 2016 referendum.
    - A resignation from your current first minister.
    - A loss of image from your democracy and your union as well.
    - A lot of troubles from those who voted to leave.

    All of the above before the end march.

    I think there is no technical time before the end of march to even start to talk about revoking it. Regards.
    Happy to be corrected but in order for the UK to revoke a50 it simply needs Parliament approval (parliament is sovereign).

    It's arguable that the miller case and subsequent legislation actually give the power to revoke a50 to the PM without further parliamentary action.

    However if a referendum or other device were deemed necessary, it is plausible that the EU would agree an extension to a50 in order to hold a referendum or to enact the required legislation to revoke a50.

    One such plan is to hold a "deal/remain" referendum alongside the Euro parl elections in May.

    That way if we remain, we will have MEPs already elected. As a side effect the turn out for the EP elections would be very much higher than normal, probably dumping UKIP as their MEPs tend to get in in low turn outs.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by beelbeeb View Post
    Barry is correct, this is the future relationship with the EU if the UK were to revoke a50 and remain in the EU.

    Whilst tongue on cheek, it makes a serious point

    Namely that the UK's current relationship has many features that answer Brexiter's criticisms.

    I note that none of the answers so far have actually rebutted any points or (and this is the point of the thread) listed the features of a Leave deal.

    When we voted we chose between a defined (but unpublicised) Remain position and an undefined Leave position.

    Subsequent events have shown how difficult it is to define the Leave position.

    I was hoping to ferret out some Leave positions beyond "Leave the fascist EU" and "take back control"

    @MODS

    Do you want me to provide a link for any specific points before restoring the thread or do you want a link for each point? I'm happy to edit the original post to add links.
    So what you're saying is let the David Lammys of this world have their way and overrule the will of the people.

    Yes ?
    --
    "The Inland Revenue is not slow, and quite rightly, to take every advantage which is open to it under the Taxing Statutes for the purposes of depleting the taxpayer's pocket. And the taxpayer is in like manner entitled to be astute to prevent, so far as he honestly can, the depletion of his means by the Inland Revenue"

    Lord Clyde: "Ayrshire Pullman Motor Services V Inland Revenue, 1929"

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by beelbeeb View Post

    I note that none of the answers so far have actually rebutted any points or (and this is the point of the thread) listed the features of a Leave deal.

    Well as far as rebutting it goes.

    "All directives from Brussels to be first passed by UK Parliament before becoming UK law" - are you suggesting that QMV is going to be abolished? - when?

    and

    "Ability to nationalised and even provide assistance to industries (for the Corbynites)" - is the 4th Rail Package not now coming into being in 2020? - have you a link?

    or

    Ability to deport EU nationals who are a burden - no benefit tourists! - is the law going to be changed allowing is to deport homeless EU nationals who are a burden on the State - link please.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by beelbeeb View Post
    Happy to be corrected but in order for the UK to revoke a50 it simply needs Parliament approval (parliament is sovereign).

    It's arguable that the miller case and subsequent legislation actually give the power to revoke a50 to the PM without further parliamentary action.

    However if a referendum or other device were deemed necessary, it is plausible that the EU would agree an extension to a50 in order to hold a referendum or to enact the required legislation to revoke a50.

    One such plan is to hold a "deal/remain" referendum alongside the Euro parl elections in May.

    That way if we remain, we will have MEPs already elected. As a side effect the turn out for the EP elections would be very much higher than normal, probably dumping UKIP as their MEPs tend to get in in low turn outs.
    Actually i have said the UK is an half democracy, i mean you do not have all of the institutions a fully democracy has, in your case you are saying "parliament is sovereign", not sure how does it exactly work. However, even if that happens the points 2-3-4 still remain.

    Asking to delay the article 50, forget about it. All of the EU nations have to agree with that. Junker, who is not the EU, has clearly said, "The best deal for the UK is to leave the EU, there will be no more renegotiation".

    Again as said, Juncker in not the EU, but he does represent maybe his nation?

    What the ukip has done, was creating a fight inside the parliament on purpose by doing nothing constructive, they have just insulted the EU and the nations in the union, up to personal insults, in many occasions, to the point that apparently some of these EU meps who have been insulted are taking it personal.

    So, if even a small nation refuses to give you a delay, which is quite probably to happen, you wont have any delay at all.

    According to the EU the only way you have to remain is to revoke the article 50 before the end of march. You invoked it in the 2017 but your govern is waiting the last days for it to expire.

    If what you said is true, about the "parliament is sovereign", and they can nullify the referendum, then that's all you have to do. Will a pro-brexit govern dismiss itself by revoking the article 50 is the question?

    I think, end of march you will be out.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jinset View Post
    If what you said is true, about the "parliament is sovereign", and they can nullify the referendum, then that's all you have to do..

    The referendum was just advisory - Parlaiment have always had the choice to ignore the result.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Jefe View Post
    The referendum was just advisory - Parlaiment have always had the choice to ignore the result.
    But Parliament did vote for the referendum and to abide by the result of it.

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