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Thread: What will be the immediate benefits to the ‘common’ people come the end of March?

  1. #241
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    Remember that only the people who are suggesting having a second referendum lost the first one - they just want another bite at the cherry because they lost.

    They certainly wouldn't be arguing for another referendum to 'check the will of the people' had they won.

  2. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by boggart View Post
    True.

    The problem I have with a 2nd referendum, is that it doesn't solve, nor propose, anything if we voted to continue leaving. It is purely being suggested so that we can stay.
    It doesn't solve anything if the vote results in remain either, unless remain is voted for with an overwhelming majority of like...75% or more.

  3. #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by cassie View Post
    Didn't they all have to vote again if they voted against it until they got the 'right' result?
    Yes, and then other countries saw the lie of the land and decided not to ask.

    The EU is a funny old beast. It seems to be going in a direction that the people don't really want it to. Why it is so unwilling to listen to the people, instead feeling that they have to "dictate" to them, is a mystery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rei View Post
    It doesn't solve anything if the vote results in remain either, unless remain is voted for with an overwhelming majority of like...75% or more.
    And that was the problem that the arrogance created in the first place. If the ref said there needed to be a 10%+ margin, then things would probably be different.
    Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.

  4. #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by boggart View Post

    And that was the problem that the arrogance created in the first place. If the ref said there needed to be a 10%+ margin, then things would probably be different.
    Not sure how that would work. If you have a binary choice between remaining in a club and leaving a club but one side has to get over 60% to win and the other only 50% + 1 how is that fair vote?

  5. #245
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnda View Post
    An absolute shambles. The EU, although requiring the unity of 27 countries, has been consistant. We still, even now at "death's door" don't know what we want and spend our time "negociating" among ourselves and then expecting the absent EU negociators to agree. Why should they. They hve been clear from the outset. We have not.

    Parliment is deadlocked. The only solution it to take it to the people, don't you agree? Anyway, your reasoned argument would be appreciated.
    Are you listening!

    WE DONT WANT ANYTHING FROM THE EU, WE WANT TO LEAVE. SIMPLE

    If the EU wish to continue trading their £67 billion surplus to the UK fine, if not we will ALWAYS find businesses willing to sell us their goods. You seem to think we are some tiny nation with zero clout, well we are not.

    5th largest economy in the world.
    5th strongest currency in the world. Ahead of the Euro in 8th.
    Number 1 language in the world for trade and technology.

    On the 29th March we will have left the EU and you WILL NOT have got your people’s vote in a pathetic attempt thwart Brexit.

    Congratulations BTW. You have the new record for turning a thread to The People’s Vote. 2 Days, it’s usually a week.
    I can explain it to you, but I can’t understand it for you.

  6. #246
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    Quote Originally Posted by boggart View Post
    Just because Westminster is atrocious at the moment, doesn't mean that we should bin it and jump into bed with Brussels/Strasbourg. I look at it along football lines. Just because a player has a foreign name, too many people consider them to be better than home grown players. Sure some are, but the majority really aren't.
    I agree, but the EU elections are another layer of democracy and not a substitute for our national parliamentary democracy. They are complimentry, or at least, should be.



    One of my big problems is that a strong democracy needs a strong opposition (and yes, currently that is devoid at Westminster, on both counts). But who is the opposition in the EU parliament? Or more importantly who offers any opposition to the EU legislative? And one thing no one has ever given a proper answer to, is why, at the very least, if we vote at EU elections (well about 35% of us that are eligible do in this country) why can't the party which polled the most votes appoint the commissioner for the UK?
    There are 8 political groups in the EU Parliament. It is not a binary system like in the UK, as you know. Personally, I do not believe that the binary UK system is a good system as it encourages people not to vote for their convictions but to vote "useful". This is essentially undemocratic in itself. So, in answer to your question, there is not the same "opposition" in the EU parliament, as you say, but that does not in itself make it less democratic, but just less "clear-cut". This has its advantages and disadvantages. However the 700 or so euroMPs are gradually getting more power and that is a good thing.

    It is a fine line to draw also between the collective good of the whole EU and the individual interests of the member states. This equilibrium is easily upset and the two extremes are the case of Brexit on the one hand and a super-state on theother hand. Neither are good. Ibelieve that the super-state will never happen and I also believe that a contagion of Brexits will not happen either. Both are extremes and the opposing forces lead to a fairly neutral position.

    I vote differently for local, national and EU elections
    . For the 39 years I lived on the Continent, I could not vote in national elections. However I voted in local and EU elections, indeed differently.

    I do not pretend to be anything like an expert on the functioning of the EU Parliament, but my impression over many years is that the extreme views never came to fruition and that progress has generally been good and in the right direction -- European unity while respecting the interests and sovereignity of member states. Of course there have been some nasty incidents and there will be some in the future, but that is not a reason to abandon ship but more of a reason to help control that ship.

  7. #247
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnda View Post
    No, it simply "says" I didn't notice it. I appologise, but I guess you now know a lot more about me. I have been very open about myself and have not ceased to offer true information. What I have seen here is rather different from what I expected. It is more like what one sees in the Daily Express.

    I did expect a balanced selection of posters with factual evidence and experience and willing to listen to each other.

    Now, as a fellow poster, can you please post something factual about the issue we are supposed to be debating?
    Allow me to tell you something about your self.
    In the top right of your screen you will see the likeometer.
    For most people it runs at around 1 like per 10 posts... You have 1 like out of 64 posts. That says that pretty much nobody agrees with what your saying, not even your fellow Remainers. It’s not necessarily what you’re saying, it’s more likely down to the smug supercilious way you write. You’re most likely going to say you don’t care what people think, well don’t post if your intention is not to engage people.
    I can explain it to you, but I can’t understand it for you.

  8. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by boggart View Post
    True.

    The problem I have with a 2nd referendum, is that it doesn't solve, nor propose, anything if we voted to continue leaving. It is purely being suggested so that we can stay.
    The truly democratic vote would be in two steps:

    1) Accept or reject May's deal?
    2) If 1) is rejected, then do you choose to remain or leave without a deal?

    Not that difficult to organize and it would truly reflect the will of the people.

  9. #249
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    Reading the title the first thing comes to mind is more people on benefits

  10. #250
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    Quote Originally Posted by boggart View Post
    I think that you can separate goods and people.

    People seems to be easy, that is if the will is there. Irish people on this forum have not disagreed, that...... To get into Ireland, you either take a boat or plain to the north or south. To do that, then you need to show ID. You know who is on the island. agree that people can move freely between north and south without a hard border.

    Goods does present a different problem. I raised the fact that there are already some sort of check in place, due to differing excise rates, VAT and other tax rates. Surely it is not beyond the whit of man to use this as a basis of "things" and expand it. Effectively you could consider NI to be a FTZ with whatever rules you might care to impose to keep it in line with RoI but without being in the Customs Union/Single Market. I do think that it comes down to political will, and that seems to be in short supply from EU.

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    Some countries even asked their people before hand. I truly think that if we were asked then, then this current situation wouldn't be playing out.
    I still can't see how we can have free movement of people, goods and services across the Irish border (as we have now) without remaining in the EU (or the equivalent in all but name). That is why May is fighting a losing battle and may well end up destroying our United Kingdom.

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