Brexit - Dose of reality needed

[Pro!]

Since 2016, the promise made for the UK was one of ambition, prosperity and a new age due to Brexit but due to the infighting and clearly vested interests playing games in this, this becoming a complete debacle now and embarrassment on world stage and a reality check is needed.

The public tones of departing as friends and the cordial deal is a complete fallacy. The vested interests games are being played on both sides. The EU facade is quite evident, they do not want a deal. The EU model is flawed and waning and with Italy and Poland rumbling with discord due to the EU controls, they want Brexit to ultimately fail to put abject feat into anyone else leaving. Its quite clear. If the UK gets a good deal or makes a success of one, what will stop Italy etc following suit and the breakup of the EU. That's the real game here and what is the real issue behind this apparent hang up on the backstop and the clear subtifuge.

You hear the fact that both sides will suffer in the event of no deal, that is common sense and is clearly evident but the vested interests need to get an injection of common sense and find a solution that suits everyone otherwise there will be bitterness that will last for generations. We are all interconnected now due to capitalism, regardless of free movement or trade deals,clear and straight compromise is the name of the game to protect people on both sides.

Even if no deal becomes a reality, I don't think we should be afraid, It could be the making of UK. We will change, as we always have done to become more innovative, dynamic and more competitive globally. We did in the past and changed to adapt to the modern realities and crisis-es. The businesses that treat us with contempt or use mass exodus due to this will in essence be publicly shaming themselves as on the flip side if they make a negative point of moving their business to the EU and a lot of their consumer base is in the UK, the consumer base do not forget the reality of the bigger picture and may ultimately boycott their products completely which in effect will lower their profits and at the end of the day will there be any positive outcome of that?. Also the EU relies on us for tourism in the Mediterranean states, again UK citizens don't forget!. I think this is being missed here.

I have tried to give an opinion here in conclusion that the vested interests need to grow up, have a dose of common sense and see the bigger picture. The decision has been made to leave by the people, we have to acknowledge that. To echo a well known phrase as a Japanese Admiral dictated at Pearl Harbour, "I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve" . The EU needs to heed this. In public rhetoric it wants to have an amicable divorce but to reflect reality it is coming across as anything but.

[cromwell]

Hi Pro!welcome to the forum, the mod team are Bright Young Thing,Cromwell and DeppityDawg.Your first few posts may need approving,have a look around at all the sections and a squint at the rules is helpful. Feel free to join in, the introduce yourself thread can break the ice. Most importantly enjoy the debate!

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[Nick]

Since 2016, the promise made for the UK was one of ambition, prosperity and a new age due to Brexit but due to the infighting and clearly vested interests playing games in this, this becoming a complete debacle now and embarrassment on world stage and a reality check is needed.

The public tones of departing as friends and the cordial deal is a complete fallacy. The vested interests games are being played on both sides. The EU facade is quite evident, they do not want a deal. The EU model is flawed and waning and with Italy and Poland rumbling with discord due to the EU controls, they want Brexit to ultimately fail to put abject feat into anyone else leaving. Its quite clear. If the UK gets a good deal or makes a success of one, what will stop Italy etc following suit and the breakup of the EU. That's the real game here and what is the real issue behind this apparent hang up on the backstop and the clear subtifuge.

You hear the fact that both sides will suffer in the event of no deal, that is common sense and is clearly evident but the vested interests need to get an injection of common sense and find a solution that suits everyone otherwise there will be bitterness that will last for generations. We are all interconnected now due to capitalism, regardless of free movement or trade deals,clear and straight compromise is the name of the game to protect people on both sides.

Even if no deal becomes a reality, I don't think we should be afraid, It could be the making of UK. We will change, as we always have done to become more innovative, dynamic and more competitive globally. We did in the past and changed to adapt to the modern realities and crisis-es. The businesses that treat us with contempt or use mass exodus due to this will in essence be publicly shaming themselves as on the flip side if they make a negative point of moving their business to the EU and a lot of their consumer base is in the UK, the consumer base do not forget the reality of the bigger picture and may ultimately boycott their products completely which in effect will lower their profits and at the end of the day will there be any positive outcome of that?. Also the EU relies on us for tourism in the Mediterranean states, again UK citizens don't forget!. I think this is being missed here.

I have tried to give an opinion here in conclusion that the vested interests need to grow up, have a dose of common sense and see the bigger picture. The decision has been made to leave by the people, we have to acknowledge that. To echo a well known phrase as a Japanese Admiral dictated at Pearl Harbour, "I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve" . The EU needs to heed this. In public rhetoric it wants to have an amicable divorce but to reflect reality it is coming across as anything but.

Welcome to the forum.

The EU is giving ground now on a weekly basis and why wouldn’t they.

£67 billion defecit in the UK’s favour, Italy in recession, Germany on the brink, Greece a dead dog and Spain/France in turmoil. That’s pretty much the entire EU’s money men with the exception of Greece. With the UK now announcing that no deal means no £39 billion they are shitting them selves. Time to twist the knife.

[Passerby]

Welcome to the forum.

The EU is giving ground now on a weekly basis and why wouldn’t they.

£67 billion defecit in the UK’s favour, Italy in recession, Germany on the brink, Greece a dead dog and Spain/France in turmoil. That’s pretty much the entire EU’s money men with the exception of Greece. With the UK now announcing that no deal means no £39 billion they are shitting them selves. Time to twist the knife.

Twist the knife did make me grin. But personally, I think we should just drop negotiation and walk. Once we've left, then let them come talking.

We will be dealing with a different beast to what we are currently seeing.

[thomas]

But personally, I think we should just drop negotiation and walk. Once we've left, then let them come talking.
.

That seems to be the general feeling among brexiters at the minute .

The trouble is , you dont have a party nor a majority in parliament for that position as i keep saying .

In 2014 , we in scotland had a party in charge to wholeheartedly execute the plan to leave the uk if we had won.

You won the referendum , but dont have the party to execute the result.

Still 7 weeks to go , and whatever happens we will know , at least in the short term , what is going to happen.

[Major Sinic]

Hi Pro, welcome to the forum and good first post with which I agree entirely. Had the UK had the appearance of unification such as the 27 have demonstrated, rather than the majority will of the electorate being publicly undermined by the Remainer faction within government, big business and the establishment I have little doubt that we would have made a fair and equitable agreement.

It now seems that the EU are increasingly confident of a defeat of Brexit in Westminster and are therefore, as I would in their position, playing hard ball by refusing to negotiate or concede on any issue. They would rather have a reluctant and defeated UK within the EU than an ambitious and determined nation outside it not just because the EU can not afford to lose the UK's net annual contribution, but because, as now seems likely, our departure would cause a major rejection of federalisation at the very least and very possibly further departures. The present impasse will last at least until the 29th March when you will the biggest flock of EU and Westminster headless chickens running around in panic, and only then will sense prevail. Few brexiters want no deal rather than a fair and workable deal. Equally they would rather have no deal than remain or agree to a fudged deal like Mrs Mays's or Labour's unclear ideas.

[sirocco]

...becoming a complete debacle now and embarrassment on world stage and a reality check is needed.

yes, I agree. Nor should we forget the cost so far of Brexit, which is somewhere betweer £100bn and £1000bn.

The EU facade is quite evident, they do not want a deal.

i think you are coming at this from the opposite end to me, but agree it is not in the interest of the EU to make any deal unless it is on their standard terms. Broadly, we can stay in any bits we like if we follow the standard rules. I dont see this at all as punishing the UK. It is simply how they do business. Neither the leave promise that the EU would fall over itself to help the Uk because it needed the trade, nor their other claim that it will punish the UK at any cost, is true.

There is also the problem of the international undertaking the Uk made to guarantee an open border in Ireland. While the Uk has ditched this promise, the EU has not. They have said the Uk cannot have any new deal unless it honours this agreement.

The EU model is flawed and waning

I really dont see any evidence for that. The 2008 crisis was caused by US banks flooding the world with worthless securities, which then made banks technically bankrupt. This was piled upon an economic model which allows this sort of scam to be widespread. The particularly egregious example has been dealt with, but the economic model is still in place. This is not anything to do with the EU, but actually the US imposing its model on the world.

the vested interests need to get an injection of common sense and find a solution that suits everyone otherwise there will be bitterness that will last for generations.

But what would you suggest? No deal brexit means dismantling the current uK economy with no guarantees about what -if anything -would replace it. Soft brexit means becoming a vassal state to the EU. We follow the rules, they make them. The only good option is the third one, we stay a member and make those rules. The Uk has always dominated the EU and got its own way. Big fish, small pond. We pushed to let in the new, more sceptical , members because we thought they would side with us and help us get our way.

We are all interconnected now due to capitalism, regardless of free movement or trade deals,clear and straight compromise is the name of the game to protect people on both sides.

Well no. The way to protect people from capitalism is to have strong laws preventing companies from exploiting everyone. International control of companies is very weak but the EU is one of the organisations which can impose some control, because it is international in scope.

Even if no deal becomes a reality, I don't think we should be afraid, It could be the making of UK.

Or, the ruination of the UK. Our international competitiveness has already been slipping. Nothing about Brexit can help this, everything about it suggests harm.

The businesses that treat us with contempt or use mass exodus due to this will in essence be publicly shaming themselves as on the flip side if they make a negative point of moving their business to the EU and a lot of their consumer base is in the UK, the consumer base do not forget the reality of the bigger picture and may ultimately boycott their products completely

It might, but in the past 'buy british' campaigns have never been very successful. People look for great products (for example the rise of the ipod) or they look for value for money. British Leyland made mediocre cars that werent cheap, and went bust.

The decision has been made to leave by the people, we have to acknowledge that.

No, it has not. 1/3 of the people voted to leave. Only 1/3! Right now the balance seems to stand at about 55% remain, 45% leave. The promises made by leave as what would happen if people voted their way, cannot be fulfilled. The government has tried to deliver what was promised, but it cant. there is nothing democratic in people voting for A and then being given B (which is utterly inferior), on the grounds they voted for something to happen. They did not vote for something completely different to what was promised.

[cassie]

The EU is definitely hoping that we will decide to stay. We will be weaker in the EU if that happens.

[BfB]

I think scirocco is missing a few points, presumably because of junker balls hitting him in the face

the eu is falling apart. they might be striking deals, but both france and germany are becoming eurospecptic (the people that is, not thier governments - lets see them have a referendum!), italy is officially in recession, greece is very eurospeptic... its not all light on that side of the channel really

[El Jefe]

The EU is definitely hoping that we will decide to stay. We will be weaker in the EU if that happens.

Yeah - can you imagine how much more the EU is going to demand we pay especially with the economic crisis brewing in the Eurozone. We'll end up paying for the entire shooting match.