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Thread: Flawed process being used for Brexit decisions

  1. #91
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    Then it will be up to us to sort it out.

    As part of that process I see that 'Project After' being planned - a combination of tax and tariff cuts to protect the economy. Maybe the EU's biggest fear will materialize after all - a UK Tax Haven on their doorstep with low costs and low regulation.

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Jefe View Post
    Then it will be up to us to sort it out.

    As part of that process I see that 'Project After' being planned - a combination of tax and tariff cuts to protect the economy. Maybe the EU's biggest fear will materialize after all - a UK Tax Haven on their doorstep with low costs and low regulation.
    We can debate if post brexit the UK makes a success of things, given time I think it will. How much time is the question. I fear it will be so long that you and I won't be around to see it.
    It's not as simple as you make out, lower tariffs to gain imports and no trade deals. lower regulation for greater imports and you cut your export market. For each gain there's a loss. It's more a balancing exercise

  3. #93
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    Two fatal flaws are built into the Brexit decision process:
    1) A referendum held at the start of a decision process cannot provide fair choice.
    2) A referendum containing multiple unknown components prevents full choice.

    A few examples show these two flaws:
    1) You are to continue in your present job or take a new post, with salary package at a level not selectable or even known by you. Is this a fair choice?

    2) Your offer to buy a house has been accepted. Would you buy then, without the surveyor’s report and solicitor’s searches, or later use them to make your final decision, ie at the end of the process?

    3) Is delivery of the verdict at the start of a criminal trial, before the trial process has even been held, acceptable?

    4) If one company is taking over another company, the final decision can only come at the end of the decision process (by law), once Due Diligence has occurred.

    However, both flaws could be fixed by holding a referendum now between Remain and the Last Brexit Deal standing. This would give full fair choice, boost democracy and restore the credibility of UK political processes.

    projectm

  4. #94
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    Why didn't parliament debate and develop the Brexit deal within parliament first before negotiating with the EU since they must approve it? The process of May and team negotiating and bringing the deal back to parliament seems to be the fatal flaw.

    I feel like there should have been much more public debate and process when developing the brexit deal than there was.

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by projectm View Post
    Two fatal flaws are built into the Brexit decision process:
    1) A referendum held at the start of a decision process cannot provide fair choice.
    2) A referendum containing multiple unknown components prevents full choice.

    A few examples show these two flaws:
    1) You are to continue in your present job or take a new post, with salary package at a level not selectable or even known by you. Is this as a fair choice?

    2) Your offer to buy a house has been accepted. Would you buy then, without the surveyor’s report and solicitor’s searches, or later use them to make your final decision, ie at the end of the process?

    3) Is delivery of the verdict at the start of a criminal trial, before the trial process has even been held, acceptable?

    4) If one company is taking over another company, the final decision can only come at the end of the decision process, once Due Diligence has occurred.

    However, both flaws could be fixed by holding a referendum now between Remain and the Last Brexit Deal standing. This would give full fair choice, boost democracy and restore the credibility of UK political processes.

    projectm
    These are not democratic flaws. Democracy does not require accurate information to be valid, though it would be nice. It is based on the idea that people choose, and are responsible for that decision. If accurate info were essential, all elections would be invalid.
    those princes have accomplished most who paid little heed to keeping their promises, but who knew how to manipulate the minds of men craftily.

    Machiavelli, The Prince

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by scott777 View Post
    These are not democratic flaws. Democracy does not require accurate information to be valid, though it would be nice. It is based on the idea that people choose, and are responsible for that decision. If accurate info were essential, all elections would be invalid.
    My interest is not principally in democracy or in Brexit. My interest is in process, and whether it is fit for purpose. Unfortunately, I have to say that the UK Brexit decision process is one of the worst processes that I have ever examined in my career. It is not just a "bit low on accuracy", it is fundamentally flawed, to the extent that it has failed entirely to give a fair and full decision opportunity for the UK electorate. Also, it has acted as a "misfire", where a process has appeared superficially to work, but has in fact failed, and has also blocked the space that should be occupied by a functioning process. The degree of this failure is evident in the resulting farcical attempts to drive it to a successful conclusion (flogging a dead horse comes to mind).
    All proper choice, which should (and could) have been carefully engineered to be a straight fight between Remain and the Last Brexit Deal (LBD) standing, has been denied, and yet most people actually think that a proper choice has taken place. That is why I have used the term "conjuring trick" in some previous posts. It is not that I think someone has done this on purpose. Far from it. This has happened because of the depressingly scanty knowledge that most people (even professionals) have about proper management process, including how to make decisions fairly and fully. The sad truth is that the parties responsible actually believed that the process they unthinkingly embarked on was correct. It wasn't. It was totally unfit for purpose.
    The really frustrating thing is that even a mess as bad as this one can still be rectified. All that is required is that the referendum that should have been aimed at from the start of the process (Remain vs LBD) could now be held, since we are on the verge of realizing which deal is in fact the LBD standing. It is the only choice that honours all possible original Leave/Remain preferences. Why on earth don't we do it?

  7. #97
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    Keep going with the same argument, we might believe it.
    My view is we voted to leave, so the only discussion left is how we leave, (up to government) not how we remain (already decided against in a people's vote June 2016).
    So, leave it is.

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  9. #98
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    Any other referendum should be between no deal and whatever deal May presents to Parliament. Why should remain be on he ballot sheet? we did that already.

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  11. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by projectm View Post
    Two fatal flaws are built into the Brexit decision process:
    1) A referendum held at the start of a decision process cannot provide fair choice.
    2) A referendum containing multiple unknown components prevents full choice.

    A few examples show these two flaws:
    1) You are to continue in your present job or take a new post, with salary package at a level not selectable or even known by you. Is this as a fair choice?

    2) Your offer to buy a house has been accepted. Would you buy then, without the surveyor’s report and solicitor’s searches, or later use them to make your final decision, ie at the end of the process?

    3) Is delivery of the verdict at the start of a criminal trial, before the trial process has even been held, acceptable?

    4) If one company is taking over another company, the final decision can only come at the end of the decision process, once Due Diligence has occurred.

    However, both flaws could be fixed by holding a referendum now between Remain and the Last Brexit Deal standing. This would give full fair choice, boost democracy and restore the credibility of UK political processes.

    projectm
    The problem with analogies...

    1) Yes. Because hours and conditions are as, if not more important as money.

    2) If it's a shell, or a fixer upper (fire damage for example) then sure.

    3) Impossible analogy. But we regularly see guilty until proven innocent. Search TV licencing.

    4) This isn't about companies buying one another. This is about democracy. 1000 said remain, 1078 said leave. You want to be in the EU? Argue your case once the public vote has been respected, otherwise at the very least, you sound like a bad loser.

    Welcome to the Hotel California...

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  13. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by projectm View Post
    All proper choice, which should (and could) have been carefully engineered to be a straight fight between Remain and the Last Brexit Deal (LBD) standing, has been denied, and yet most people actually think that a proper choice has taken place.
    You didn't really read my reply, did you? I'll explain. It is not your job to decide whether people have made a proper choice, nor is there even a definition of 'proper choice' or 'valid choice'. In a democracy, every person is responsible for their own choice. End of story.
    those princes have accomplished most who paid little heed to keeping their promises, but who knew how to manipulate the minds of men craftily.

    Machiavelli, The Prince

  14. The Following User Says Thank You to scott777 For This Useful Post:

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