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Thread: Mike Harding, Dear Theresa

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Javert View Post
    OK but in my post, I said that if we went ahead with a no deal Brexit and it caused all sorts of chaos, don't blame me if we end up rejoining the EU as a result
    I wasn't blaming you for anything

    which is that if a no deal Brexit is really the will of the people (which by the way all the opinion polls say it isn't,
    opinion polls are nothing but a guess and are often wrong......remember?

    but let's leave that aside
    Oh good so you didn't need to mention it

    In any event you still avoid the original question
    Also do you believe in the european project,the single currency and the goal of a USofE?
    No pressure
    Sold down the river,well actually in this case the channel and substitute plantation owners for eu.
    Also unless I post as moderator please understand all other posts are as an ordinary member.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Know it View Post
    We had two options from the word go, no deal, or a poor deal. I still think a poor deal is safer
    And herein we have the mentality of the entire Brexit program captured perfectly, and by a leave voter as far as I can tell.

    Quote Originally Posted by scott777 View Post
    The only way to be truly prepared, now that May has achieved nothing in 2.5 years, is to delay it. That would cost money. So not an option.
    Er..... a no deal Brexit in a disorderly way will cost even more money. Most of the time, being prepared for something in advance is much cheaper than causing a disaster and then paying to clean it up. Ask people who didn't bother fitting a fire alarm.

    Quote Originally Posted by cromwell View Post
    In any event you still avoid the original question


    No pressure
    What has it got to do with whether I believer in the USofE and the single currency? I don't recall every advocating joining those things. I said that I would prefer to remain in the EU under our current arrangements, than any other available option that anybody (including leave people who were in charge of DexEU) had managed to negotiate or have any realistic prospect of negotiating.

    If they had negotiated a deal which was even remotely close to what they promised during the referendum, I would back it and say we should go ahead. In my view, the chances of anyone negotiating such a deal are zero, and if someone does what Dominic Raab was suggesting this morning, it will simply result in no deal as the EU will just say no.

    The EU has staked their entire reputation on the backstop arrangement and supported Ireland (ROI) in that. They have offered quite wide ranging access to the single market in order to secure that backstop without the UK having to pay. The deal on the table is actually significantly better than what I thought we would be offered.

    Now I'll admit, you can argue that their position is illogical since if we go with no deal and refuse to have any deal, there is no backstop anyway, so why are they so insistent on not having a deadline at the end. However I think from their point of view it's essential to maintain peace and properity in a member state (ROI).

    As for the Euro, no I don't support the UK joining in its current form. If it made sense at some point in future perhaps, but I can't see that being the case for at least a couple of decades if ever.

    As for the USofE - I don't support the idea but I'm not ideologically or emotionally opposed to discussing it. As far as I can tell, there's never been much serious debate about the pros and cons because any mention of it immediately turns into an adversarial and angry shouting match devoid of facts or nuance.

    All this is irrelevant because nobody is, or ever was, forcing the UK to join either. The UK could have chosen to leave the EU as and when the USofE was created.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Javert View Post
    As for the Euro, no I don't support the UK joining in its current form. If it made sense at some point in future perhaps, but I can't see that being the case for at least a couple of decades if ever.
    And should a new treaty require all being in the euro? that is part of the project after all.

    As for the USofE - I don't support the idea but I'm not ideologically or emotionally opposed to discussing it. As far as I can tell, there's never been much serious debate about the pros and cons because any mention of it immediately turns into an adversarial and angry shouting match devoid of facts or nuance.
    But again that is the goal,already Germany is asking France to give its place on the UN security council to the EU.

    All this is irrelevant because nobody is, or ever was, forcing the UK to join either.
    Irrelevant you say,no it isn't..... remain and you are saying all this is irrelevant and leave lies,in the last few weeks we have had senior EU officials rewriting history,increasing calls for an EU army,the UN security council place,you have pointed out how difficult it is to leave and the relationship weaved so costly to undo how much more difficult when woven in to such further integration and federalisation,if we say this is leave scaremongering it is my opinion that anyone who says this is not the ultimate goal and being actively pursued are the purveyors of lies.
    Sold down the river,well actually in this case the channel and substitute plantation owners for eu.
    Also unless I post as moderator please understand all other posts are as an ordinary member.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by cromwell View Post
    And should a new treaty require all being in the euro? that is part of the project after all.

    But again that is the goal,already Germany is asking France to give its place on the UN security council to the EU.

    Irrelevant you say,no it isn't..... remain and you are saying all this is irrelevant and leave lies,in the last few weeks we have had senior EU officials rewriting history,increasing calls for an EU army,the UN security council place,you have pointed out how difficult it is to leave and the relationship weaved so costly to undo how much more difficult when woven in to such further integration and federalisation,if we say this is leave scaremongering it is my opinion that anyone who says this is not the ultimate goal and being actively pursued are the purveyors of lies.
    What one politician or official said they would wish to happen is irrelevant. The fact is that the UK in the EU has a veto over those things. It's a legal fact. Just because Joe Bloggs or whoever said that they wanted an EU army or a USofE or whatever, doesn't mean it will happen.

    Screaming Lord Sutch was a politician and he might have had a policy to turn the UK into a giant bowl of porridge - that doesn't mean it's going to happen. I don't understand why leave advocates seem to understand that in the UK politicians have lots of different opinions and ideas but only some of them are implemented when they are actually legally put into place, but every single wishlist that any European politician mentions is automatically happening. Why do you believe that other democratic nations implement every single idea that one person said?

    Again, the UK has a legal veto over the things you are mentioning - unless you can prove otherwise, it doesn't matter what any individual EU employee or politician says or wants.

    I would also point out, that even when the UK veto having a European army, there's nothing to stop the 27 other countries creating a treating and then creating a pan Europe 27 nation army force or suchlike - nations are free to cooperate militarily if they wish. Of course, that would be great for the UK when every country all around us has a combined army that we've chosen not to be a part of - no issues with that whatsoever from a UK national interest perspective! Point being, nations could do that if they wanted outside of EU structures as there's nothing in EU treaties forbidding member nations from setting up any kind of military force they want.

    And by the way, this is another one of those things that nobody ever discusses - nobody ever has any reasonable conversation about whether a European EU army would be a good or bad thing, because as soon as it's even mentioned as a long term possibility, everyone jumps up and down and gets all emotional without even bothering to find out any facts whatsoever.

    By the way, there are already lots of different treaty based cooperative situations between various nations where nations will form joint military forces for various purposes and operations, and the UK is already part of some of them.

    As for the Euro - there are plenty EU sources that already said that if the UK changed it's mind before the end of A50, they would keep the same terms, and that was even before the European advocate general ruled that the UK can cancel Article 50 unilaterally, which by definition would mean we haven't left.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Javert View Post
    As for the Euro - there are plenty EU sources that already said that if the UK changed it's mind before the end of A50, they would keep the same terms, and that was even before the European advocate general ruled that the UK can cancel Article 50 unilaterally, which by definition would mean we haven't left.
    I thought he said that idea was non binding,it's up to the judges who apparently will rule in the next 24 hours not him.
    Sold down the river,well actually in this case the channel and substitute plantation owners for eu.
    Also unless I post as moderator please understand all other posts are as an ordinary member.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by cromwell View Post
    I thought he said that idea was non binding,it's up to the judges who apparently will rule in the next 24 hours not him.
    Yes. From what I understand though the majority of the time, the EJC rules in line with the AG. Even if not, that doesn't mean the EU wouldn't allow the UK to withdraw it's A50 notification, it just means the other 47 has to agree, which they probably would (after some posturing).

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