View Poll Results: Would you allow the families of those who left the UK to fight for IS to return?

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    2 14.29%
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    11 78.57%
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Thread: Well would you allow them back?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Javert View Post
    As I said, it depends on the individual case - not all people have been groomed or manipulated even know that it's happened, so it depends on the definition of "openly choosing". I again draw the parallel with grooming in this country where quite often the victim doesn't see it as grooming until they go through a lengthy psychological process.

    These are (or at least were) UK citizens so they should have the same rights as other UK citizens, which for example means if they've committed crimes they should be tried in the UK and imprisoned in the UK.
    The girls in Leeds didn’t leave at the dead of night, fly to Gaziantep and sneak over a border to join a band of murderers of their own free will. These girls thought it was some exciting adventure, well now the cold harsh reality of their actions will come to pass.
    I can explain it to you, but I canít understand it for you.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    The girls in Leeds didn’t leave at the dead of night, fly to Gaziantep and sneak over a border to join a band of murderers of their own free will. These girls thought it was some exciting adventure, well now the cold harsh reality of their actions will come to pass.

    I suspect that that at least some of them were vulnerable people who were brainwashed and manipulated into travelling there.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Javert View Post
    I suspect that that at least some of them were vulnerable people who were brainwashed and manipulated into travelling there.
    You could say every single person who joined the ISIS was brainwashed to varying degrees . We should remove their passports their citizenship and any 'rights' they think they might have and let them rot

  4. #24
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    No return, Not now not ever. They made their choices.

  5. #25
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    It's no good. I keep thinking about this and I can't agree to a blanket ban on these women. I remember the turmoil when some of them - just teenagers - disappeared. Apparently encouraged online with arrangements facilitated for them to make their journeys. I would imagine that every coercion was used including their faith to persuade them that this was the right thing to do. I am certain too that secrecy was drummed into them.

    They made dreadful judgements based on tainted information with immature minds. Some I know were reported killed, but those who survived could at least be assessed before judgement is given on their potential as UK citizens once more. I can't help feeling that at least in some cases these were girls groomed with all sorts of empty promises. We could at least look at them individually.
    ...till I die I will not remove mine integrity from me, xx

  6. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to T00ts For This Useful Post:

    Borchester (31-10-2018), Javert (31-10-2018)

  7. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by T00ts View Post
    It's no good. I keep thinking about this and I can't agree to a blanket ban on these women. I remember the turmoil when some of them - just teenagers - disappeared. Apparently encouraged online with arrangements facilitated for them to make their journeys. I would imagine that every coercion was used including their faith to persuade them that this was the right thing to do. I am certain too that secrecy was drummed into them.

    They made dreadful judgements based on tainted information with immature minds. Some I know were reported killed, but those who survived could at least be assessed before judgement is given on their potential as UK citizens once more. I can't help feeling that at least in some cases these were girls groomed with all sorts of empty promises. We could at least look at them individually.
    T00ts you have a good heart and mind and whilst you make me feel a little guilty you must remember they did have a choice and made a bad one.

    We cannot afford to make another so sadly they must stay where they went.
    To paraphase one of our last great political leaders Winston Spencer Churchill "Never in the field of British politics and Brexit was so much expected by so many of so few......only to be bitterly disappointed"

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  9. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by T00ts View Post
    It's no good. I keep thinking about this and I can't agree to a blanket ban on these women. I remember the turmoil when some of them - just teenagers - disappeared. Apparently encouraged online with arrangements facilitated for them to make their journeys. I would imagine that every coercion was used including their faith to persuade them that this was the right thing to do. I am certain too that secrecy was drummed into them.

    They made dreadful judgements based on tainted information with immature minds. Some I know were reported killed, but those who survived could at least be assessed before judgement is given on their potential as UK citizens once more. I can't help feeling that at least in some cases these were girls groomed with all sorts of empty promises. We could at least look at them individually.
    Like Cromwell I have a deal of respect for your views, your integrity and your postings. You knew there was going to be a but! Some of these females may well have been persuaded, coerced and generally encouraged to leave the UK and travel Syria to provide succour, support and in many cases marital pleasures to the murdering terrorists who were guilty of the most appalling atrocities against humanity. I do not believe that they were unaware of what ISIS terrorists did, before they even arrived but certainly once they were there. We do not know what active part some or all of these women played in their terrorist war. Once an adult reaches the age of 18 they are deemed to be responsible for their own actions. Ultimately these women went about their deeds of their own volition. If the argument is that extreme imams mentally subjugated them, then it is a convincing reason why Islam should be far more greatly controlled in our country is it not?

    The first responsibility of our government is to keep society's citizens safe, not to ex-citizens who left our shores to fight a terrorist war. Allowing any of them to return increases the risk to and jeopardises the safety of our citizens in our society; their defence seems to be that they were brain-washed once. It seems to me that such people would again become the target of extremist brain washing again. Leave them where they are and there is no risk at all to the UK. This country owes them nothing beyond outright rejection.

    Not surprisingly I can't find the video, but others will remember the Jordanian Air Force pilot who was captured by ISIS and may remember the video. They locked him in a steel cage, covered him in petrol and set fire to him. He was surrounded by a large crowd, including numerous burkah clad women, screaming abuse and insults as he died. There is no evidence that any of these British terrorist women where in that crowd, but it seems likely to me that they could well have been.

    There is no place in our society for these irretrievably evil people.

  10. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Major Sinic View Post
    Like Cromwell I have a deal of respect for your views, your integrity and your postings. You knew there was going to be a but! Some of these females may well have been persuaded, coerced and generally encouraged to leave the UK and travel Syria to provide succour, support and in many cases marital pleasures to the murdering terrorists who were guilty of the most appalling atrocities against humanity. I do not believe that they were unaware of what ISIS terrorists did, before they even arrived but certainly once they were there. We do not know what active part some or all of these women played in their terrorist war. Once an adult reaches the age of 18 they are deemed to be responsible for their own actions. Ultimately these women went about their deeds of their own volition. If the argument is that extreme imams mentally subjugated them, then it is a convincing reason why Islam should be far more greatly controlled in our country is it not?

    The first responsibility of our government is to keep society's citizens safe, not to ex-citizens who left our shores to fight a terrorist war. Allowing any of them to return increases the risk to and jeopardises the safety of our citizens in our society; their defence seems to be that they were brain-washed once. It seems to me that such people would again become the target of extremist brain washing again. Leave them where they are and there is no risk at all to the UK. This country owes them nothing beyond outright rejection.

    Not surprisingly I can't find the video, but others will remember the Jordanian Air Force pilot who was captured by ISIS and may remember the video. They locked him in a steel cage, covered him in petrol and set fire to him. He was surrounded by a large crowd, including numerous burkah clad women, screaming abuse and insults as he died. There is no evidence that any of these British terrorist women where in that crowd, but it seems likely to me that they could well have been.

    There is no place in our society for these irretrievably evil people.
    I'm just wondering, based on this, do you believe that the spouses and children of convicted IRA terrorists (or any other type of criminals) should also have been locked up?

    If not, what is the difference? At what level of crime should the bar be set where we lock up the families of the perpetrator as well as himself? If it's even more extreme, should we lock up their cousins and parents as well? Perhaps anyone they associated with? Isn't that starting to sound a bit like a police state?

    Also, before you say this is a strawman - it's not, I am simply trying to understand why you think it's ok to punish these women, but it wouldn't be ok to punish the families of other criminals (if that's what you think)?

  11. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Major Sinic View Post
    Like Cromwell I have a deal of respect for your views, your integrity and your postings. You knew there was going to be a but! Some of these females may well have been persuaded, coerced and generally encouraged to leave the UK and travel Syria to provide succour, support and in many cases marital pleasures to the murdering terrorists who were guilty of the most appalling atrocities against humanity. I do not believe that they were unaware of what ISIS terrorists did, before they even arrived but certainly once they were there. We do not know what active part some or all of these women played in their terrorist war. Once an adult reaches the age of 18 they are deemed to be responsible for their own actions. Ultimately these women went about their deeds of their own volition. If the argument is that extreme imams mentally subjugated them, then it is a convincing reason why Islam should be far more greatly controlled in our country is it not?

    The first responsibility of our government is to keep society's citizens safe, not to ex-citizens who left our shores to fight a terrorist war. Allowing any of them to return increases the risk to and jeopardises the safety of our citizens in our society; their defence seems to be that they were brain-washed once. It seems to me that such people would again become the target of extremist brain washing again. Leave them where they are and there is no risk at all to the UK. This country owes them nothing beyond outright rejection.

    Not surprisingly I can't find the video, but others will remember the Jordanian Air Force pilot who was captured by ISIS and may remember the video. They locked him in a steel cage, covered him in petrol and set fire to him. He was surrounded by a large crowd, including numerous burkah clad women, screaming abuse and insults as he died. There is no evidence that any of these British terrorist women where in that crowd, but it seems likely to me that they could well have been.

    There is no place in our society for these irretrievably evil people.
    I totally understand both you and Cromwell and others who have given similar views, but to judge them irretrievably evil en masse is to deny individual weakness, individual responses to threats, human response to circumstances outside of their control. Perhaps we would all feel more kindly towards them if they had stood up for our values and died in the attempt. I can't imagine the shock that I feel most of these girls would have felt, once they realised the terror they were living amongst. I don't think this is an easy judgement at all and certainly isn't fair. Most females in those circumstances would feel pretty much overwhelmed. I doubt anyone was as happy to facilitate their return in the same way that they facilitated their travel there. I grant that there may well have been the odd ones who embraced the evil but many others would have been cajoled into following 'or else'. Perhaps as a woman I can see the other side and I don't see any allowance for the youth and fragility of these young girls as they were when they arrived.

    I still think this is something that should be judged on individual cases.
    ...till I die I will not remove mine integrity from me, xx

  12. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Javert View Post
    I'm just wondering, based on this, do you believe that the spouses and children of convicted IRA terrorists (or any other type of criminals) should also have been locked up?

    If not, what is the difference? At what level of crime should the bar be set where we lock up the families of the perpetrator as well as himself? If it's even more extreme, should we lock up their cousins and parents as well? Perhaps anyone they associated with? Isn't that starting to sound a bit like a police state?

    Also, before you say this is a strawman - it's not, I am simply trying to understand why you think it's ok to punish these women, but it wouldn't be ok to punish the families of other criminals (if that's what you think)?
    Well firstly if the wife and children accompanied the man to the crime be it burglary or whatever then yes they should face punishment.

    However we are not talking about relatively petty crimes but people bent on a murderous campaign so sorry Javert hard as it is .....stuff 'em.
    As far as the families of terrorists in NI they didn't leave the UK did they?
    To paraphase one of our last great political leaders Winston Spencer Churchill "Never in the field of British politics and Brexit was so much expected by so many of so few......only to be bitterly disappointed"

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