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Thread: Brexit and the Northern Ireland border crossing

  1. #1221
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    No, the UK has not agreed the backstop. May signed it and then agreed to put it in front of the Commons.

    Juncker says the backstop cannot be removed... Seriously? Do you people comprehend why the UK voted out? It was to stop the EU telling us what we can and can’t do.
    This is the last time i'm going to explain it to you, then, or you are a brainwashed pro-brexit, or you pretend not to understand, or you do not really understand.

    The EU parliament works this way.

    According to the population of a nation, you get in the EU parliament a certain number of meps. The reasons germany has the highest number of meps it is because they are almost 100 millions people. However France Italy and UK are close from 70 to 80 millions of people each.

    When they vote in the EU, it is not british on a side, french on a side and so on. They are all mixed. So if they have to vote something, it can be a british and a german meps voting for the same law.

    So it is not the EU that is telling you what to do. It is the UK too, because the UK meps voted as well.

    The reason now that backstop cannot be removed, is because you have left the Union, and now the EU and the UK are two foreign nations or better two foreign unions.

    You meps and my meps were working together.

    Now your meps are not part of the EU anymore.

    So now, the EU meps take decision for the EU without the UK meps. The UK can now take decisions only for themselves.

    If you were still in the EU, first of all there would not be any problem with that border, second of all you could have used your 73 meps, france has 74 and germany if i remember about 79, we are not talking about that much difference, you could have used your meps to fix things from your side, now you cannot.

    Now, it is up to the EU and the UK to discuss, maybe under the UN about that border.

    The EU will probably do the interest of Ireland, because Ireland is EU, and the UK will probably do the interest of the british NI.

    Do you get that the EU was not a foreign nation imposing you laws? That was pure propaganda. You were part of the EU those decisions were taken by the UK too.

    Now you are out, the EU is now actually a foreign nation. Regards.

  2. #1222
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    Apologies, I stand corrected, I thought that Ireland were in Schengen. They are not.

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  4. #1223
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    According to a DUP politician I was listening to ,the Eu has a contingency plan for an no-deal Brexit which will deal with the NI border is in place. As he said, if the EU can implement this without a deal, why not implement it and get a deal passed?

  5. #1224
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnda View Post
    Essentially, the present situation on the island of Ireland is: freedom of movement of people, goods and services. Everybody wants this to remain an "open border" including Mrs May.
    Quote Originally Posted by cassie View Post
    According to a DUP politician I was listening to ,the Eu has a contingency plan for an no-deal Brexit which will deal with the NI border is in place. As he said, if the EU can implement this without a deal, why not implement it and get a deal passed?
    Mrs May or Juncker, politicians, ministers, even presidents, they can say whatever they want. The problem is, i do not know how it is called the "supreme court" in there, the institution that can even block the decision of the parliament if these decisions are breaking the laws, international or constitutional laws, and "foreign relation".

    In easy words, nobody can cross a border between 2 foreign nations without a VISA, this is an international law. So they cannot keep that border open in case the UK will be out end of this march. If the EU and the UK will work over a special agreement for that border not to become a checkpoint, is gonna take ages.

  6. #1225
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jinset View Post

    In easy words, nobody can cross a border between 2 foreign nations without a VISA, this is an international law. So they cannot keep that border open in case the UK will be out end of this march. If the EU and the UK will work over a special agreement for that border not to become a checkpoint, is gonna take ages.
    Sorry that is incorrect. The UK and Eire have been part of the CTA since 1925 which allows people free access across the border.

  7. #1226
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Jefe View Post
    Sorry that is incorrect. The UK and Eire have been part of the CTA since 1925 which allows people free access across the border.
    @ElJefe, that CTA agreement was made before the UN. The what you call good friday agreement, actually the Northen Ireland Peace Agreement, was made "under" the UN and relative agreements, so what i have said above is correct. Regards.

    https://peacemaker.un.org/uk-ireland-good-friday98
    http://theconversation.com/how-inter...-the-dup-79583

  8. #1227
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Jefe View Post
    Sorry that is incorrect. The UK and Eire have been part of the CTA since 1925 which allows people free access across the border.
    There is another issue here though that hasn't really gotten as much attention as the border -- bearing in mind that the CTA was actually never fully formalised in a legally-binding agreement (because the eventual development of EU free movement law negated the need to ever really cement the CTA). Now, we could just surmise that the UK and Ireland will simply move to formalise the CTA post-Brexit to maintain a free-movement zone between them. But there is a major, major issue to be resolved -- and one which might be at best a legal headscratcher, and at worst a seriously divisive bone of contention:

    Rights of Irish citizens in Northern Ireland
    People born in NI have a right to dual nationality (as I have) so can hold an Irish passport and Irish citizenship. If they have Irish citizenship though, this means that post-Brexit they will remain EU citizens. What that effectively would mean is that a person born in Northern Ireland could choose at will to be an EU citizen via their right to claim Irish citizenship. But how could that actually work in practice? How can you have a country where one section of the population can extend their rights as citizens at the EU level simply by claiming Irish citizenship?

    One could simply say that it couldn't work in practice -- that people born in Northern Ireland should be treated effectively as immigrants -- with no EU citizen rights. But this situation is different from immigration because under current law, Irish nationality is now a legal birthright of people born in NI. But if they cannot avail of the full benefits of their Irish citizenship, then it is essentially a second-class citizenship.

    The Emma De Souza case, wherein the Home Office is trying to force a Northern Irish woman to renounce her British citizenship in order for her husband to come live in NI via her special right to claim irish nationality, demonstrates that there may be a hardline approach adopted. The Home Office is arguing that UK immigration law trumps the GFA -- an argument which the Belfast courts have rejected but which the Home Office is set to appeal. Sorting out the border may well only be the first step in a protracted battle over the rights of Irish citizens in NI post-Brexit.

  9. #1228
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jinset View Post
    @ElJefe, that CTA agreement was made before the UN. The what you call good friday agreement, actually the Northen Ireland Peace Agreement, was made "under" the UN and relative agreements, so what i have said above is correct. Regards.

    That makes no sense at all. The UN was formed in 1948 and the CTA has been in use since 1925 up until the creation of the EU and the introduction fo Freedom of Movement.

    So sorry you are wrong to claim that 'nobody can cross a border between 2 foreign nations without a VISA'

  10. #1229
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conchúr View Post
    There is another issue here though that hasn't really gotten as much attention as the border -- bearing in mind that the CTA was actually never fully formalised in a legally-binding agreement (because the eventual development of EU free movement law negated the need to ever really cement the CTA). Now, we could just surmise that the UK and Ireland will simply move to formalise the CTA post-Brexit to maintain a free-movement zone between them. But there is a major, major issue to be resolved -- and one which might be at best a legal headscratcher, and at worst a seriously divisive bone of contention:

    Rights of Irish citizens in Northern Ireland
    People born in NI have a right to dual nationality (as I have) so can hold an Irish passport and Irish citizenship. If they have Irish citizenship though, this means that post-Brexit they will remain EU citizens. What that effectively would mean is that a person born in Northern Ireland could choose at will to be an EU citizen via their right to claim Irish citizenship. But how could that actually work in practice? How can you have a country where one section of the population can extend their rights as citizens at the EU level simply by claiming Irish citizenship?

    One could simply say that it couldn't work in practice -- that people born in Northern Ireland should be treated effectively as immigrants -- with no EU citizen rights. But this situation is different from immigration because under current law, Irish nationality is now a legal birthright of people born in NI. But if they cannot avail of the full benefits of their Irish citizenship, then it is essentially a second-class citizenship.
    Not sure how that is any different from any other case of dual nationality - in all those cases the particular individual gets more rights than other citizens and that has never been seen as a problem before.



    The Emma De Souza case, wherein the Home Office is trying to force a Northern Irish woman to renounce her British citizenship in order for her husband to come live in NI via her special right to claim irish nationality, demonstrates that there may be a hardline approach adopted. The Home Office is arguing that UK immigration law trumps the GFA -- an argument which the Belfast courts have rejected but which the Home Office is set to appeal. Sorting out the border may well only be the first step in a protracted battle over the rights of Irish citizens in NI post-Brexit.[/QUOTE]


    As you say the Government lost the court case, which seems the correct decision.

  11. #1230
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Jefe View Post
    That makes no sense at all. The UN was formed in 1948 and the CTA has been in use since 1925 up until the creation of the EU and the introduction fo Freedom of Movement.
    Correct, this means the CTA has lost value, and some of the CTA points are not that legal anymore, because the UN, and you are part of the UN, has introduced new international laws that "took over" the CTA rules. The good friday agreement too, has lost some value, because that's not anymore an irish and UK border, that's now an EU and UK border. So it must be rediscussed. In easy words, the international laws have changed in the years, and you have to "update" those agreements otherwise they become not valid anymore. The good friday agreement itself has in part replaced the CTA agreement.

    Quote Originally Posted by El Jefe View Post
    So sorry you are wrong to claim that 'nobody can cross a border between 2 foreign nations without a VISA'
    This is so far an internatinal laws, otherwise tomorrow you could see one milion of immigrants coming to your country and they are totally legal. Regards.

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