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Thread: What reaction has there been to ths thing that I perceive to be a horror?

  1. #1
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    What reaction has there been to ths thing that I perceive to be a horror?

    Hi.

    I came across this a short while ago ...

    A Hate Crime is defined as "Any criminal offence which is perceived by the victim or any other person, to be motivated by hostility or prejudice based on a person's race or perceived race; religion or perceived religion; sexual orientation or perceived sexual orientation; disability or perceived disability and any crime motivated by hostility or prejudice against a person who is transgender or perceived to be transgender."


    A Hate Incident is any incident which the victim, or anyone else, thinks is based on someone’s prejudice towards them because of their race, religion, sexual orientation, disability or because they are transgender.


    Not all hate incidents will amount to criminal offences, but it is equally important that these are reported and recorded by the police.


    Evidence of the hate element is not a requirement. You do not need to personally perceive the incident to be hate related. It would be enough if another person, a witness or even a police officer thought that the incident was hate related.
    https://www.met.police.uk/advice-and...is-hate-crime/

    Direct quote, right off the Met site.

    Now, we here in the States have PCness on a regular basis but this struck me as positively Orwellian. The way I read it, I can "report" you for a possible offense if I think that you overstepped some subjective line.

    I dropped a line to the Met asking them about the implications of this guideline, no response.

    Shouldn't this generate massive outrage? The left (here at least) bleats about "NAZIs" at every turn but this sure seems to be out of Adolf's playbook.

    Am I wrong? Please enlighten me.

    n.b. I have done a fair amount of business with you lot over the years and the one mistake that I made was assuming that we actually spoke the same language. Yeah, the words ore the same, mostly, but inflection and emphasis and the use of irony is different. That said, please take what I write at face value, I m not being arch in the slightest. I am asking this because our laws are based on common law and the free expression of ideas is something that I thought we both valued very highly. The chilling effect such a position on the part of any government is apt to stifle any sort of meaningful debate on anything that is, well, meaningful.

    I read the above and my jaw dropped.

    Final note... There was a movie ages ago called "The Counterfeit Traitor". There was a little Hitler Youth kid in it who watched and watched and stroked his chin. That is what comes to mind here.

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    I just read that thread twice, and still don't understand what you are saying, so for this reason I am going to have a guess and respond accordingly.

    I am guessing that you may be referring to our lack of freedom of speech, which may be as a result of political correctness, and the government's attempt to introduce a multicultural and inclusive society, all of which I think is total bo11ocks. For your information, the man in the UK street is now a dirty term, and unless you are of a minority group there is little chance you will get listened to. To be honest, we need a Donald Trump, only far more extreme.
    Keep Britain British, whoops, it's to late

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phineas View Post
    Hi.

    I came across this a short while ago ...


    https://www.met.police.uk/advice-and...is-hate-crime/

    Direct quote, right off the Met site.

    Now, we here in the States have PCness on a regular basis but this struck me as positively Orwellian. The way I read it, I can "report" you for a possible offense if I think that you overstepped some subjective line.
    I have to say I do not understand this and can only think it a mistake. It seems to say that any crime that is perceived by anybody (victim, perpetrator, bystander, the press) as a hate crime is then treated as a hate crime. This suggests that a bank robbery is a hate crime, for example, if anyone suggests that it be so whatever the facts are. I wonder if this is a deliberate misinterpretation of the intent in categorising some crimes as hate crimes in order to make a point that the government instructions on this are unclear.

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    I have to agree that it is unclear what you are objecting to. Does it bother you whether a crime is a hate-crime or not? The article doesn't address the definition of a crime. It merely says, 'if a crime is perceived as a hate crime, then it might be considered as such'. You need to explain why you find it Orwellian, for us to discuss your issue.
    those princes have accomplished most who paid little heed to keeping their promises, but who knew how to manipulate the minds of men craftily.

    Machiavelli, The Prince

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    Let me try again.



    A Hate Crime is defined as "Any criminal offence which is perceived by the victim or any other person, to be motivated by etc etc
    So the perception of the victim or ANY OTHER person defines a hate crime. Straightforward definition.


    A Hate Incident is any incident which the victim, or anyone else, thinks is based on someone’s prejudice towards them because of their race, religion, sexual orientation, disability or because they are transgender.
    Ditto here


    Not all hate incidents will amount to criminal offences, but it is equally important that these are reported and recorded by the police.
    So one ought to report behaviors that are ... what? Not to one's liking?

    Evidence of the hate element is not a requirement. You do not need to personally perceive the incident to be hate related. It would be enough if another person, a witness or even a police officer thought that the incident was hate related.
    Here they seem to be restating that if anyone does not like a behavior and chooses to interpret it as "hate" you have something reportable and, presumably, an offense.

    This is the realm of ThoughtCrime.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phineas View Post





    So the perception of the victim or ANY OTHER person defines a hate crime. Straightforward definition.



    This is the realm of Thought Crime.
    That's as I see it . It gives an extra layer of protection (or some would say an advantage ) to minorities from the masses aided and assisted by those easily offended on other peoples behalf .

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    At first sight, letting any person at all define a crime as a hate crime just on the basis of their say-so seems mad and will void the use of any valuable statistics that are to be gathered in future. If someone got mugged for example, somebody would be able to categorise this as a hate crime against wealthy people without any justification whatsoever. I suppose, more realistically, that this is being pedantic though. Most people will still report a crime just on the basis of the crime being carried out though I expect there would be some increase as a result of some victims, and/or bystanders or pressure groups, wanting to classify the crime in such a way. Is the idea to take the issue of definition out of the hands of the police?

    I am sure that most crimes are committed are not hate crimes but just "indifferent" crimes - that is the perpetrators just have no regard or empathy with their victims whatsoever. In my mind it should be the crime that defines the punishment and not the motive. The latter is too subjective and to just leave this to anybody whatsoever to categorise seems rather odd.

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    Quote Originally Posted by grumzed View Post
    I am sure that most crimes are committed are not hate crimes but just "indifferent" crimes - that is the perpetrators just have no regard or empathy with their victims whatsoever. In my mind it should be the crime that defines the punishment and not the motive. The latter is too subjective and to just leave this to anybody whatsoever to categorise seems rather odd.
    I couldn't agree more with this.
    People should in most cases be judged upon their actions and the results.
    The only times a state of mind needs to be taken into account is when it is necessary to prove a mens rea for a crime, such as theft, or to consider a psychological state where the person may need to be treated as seriously mentally disturbed and sent to a mental hospital, rather than prison or other form of punishment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phineas View Post
    Here they seem to be restating that if anyone does not like a behavior and chooses to interpret it as "hate" you have something reportable and, presumably, an offense.
    Where does it presume it must be an offence? Anything is 'reportable'. You just go and report it. That doesn't make it an offence.
    those princes have accomplished most who paid little heed to keeping their promises, but who knew how to manipulate the minds of men craftily.

    Machiavelli, The Prince

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