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Thread: Does anyone realise the depth of the problem

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnofgwent View Post
    there's always one arse hole who falls for it

    https://www.organdonation.nhs.uk/about-donation/organ-donation-and-ethnicity/

    this is actually a rewrite. the orginal in place when I stood for parliament was more forthright and despite me using it in my campaign stayed that way for several years... the original page admitting in forthright terms (a) the black and the minority ethnic were more susceptible to diseases than the white and (b) their cultural practices made organ donation less likely.

    Today it's had a bit of a blackwash but it still can't get away from the facts...

    And I'm proud to have able to help educate you out of your ignorance ...
    So ethnic minorities are more likely to develop certain illnesses - so what? What is your conclusion from this?

    Looking for other articles on this, the reasons for this are not fully understood, but may be partly genetic, and partly based on environmental factors (ethnic minorities are much more likely to be in poverty and have poor diet etc). The article also points out that organs are much more likely to be compatible if they come from the same ethnic background, so again I'm not quite sure what you underlying point is.

    There are also some illnesses that European white people are more prone to getting, and there are many many illnesses that are genetically driven according to your ancestry - again, so what?

    Drinking and smoking and over eating are legal in the UK, so you are free to drink, smoke and eat yourself to an early grave if you wish to save money for the country. That doesn't mean it should be government policy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Know it View Post
    You don't need any "source data". Fact, the UK population has grown out of all control. Fact, The infrastructure, such as the NHS, prison services, roads, public transport, education etc etc, can't cope, and the tax revenue isn't even close to paying for the investment required. You don't need facts and figures to see this, you just need to open your eyes.

    The facts given by Aviva all those years also make perfect sense. The longer you live, the more pensions the government will have to pay out, and the more they have to spend on health care and care homes. I am perfectly aware that our society isn't prepared to tolerate and Logan's run scenario, but it amazes me that the government is so hell bent on keeping people alive so long. Only yesterday there was a report that drinking as little as 5 pints of beer a week will shorten your life by six months. If I had anything to do with it I would be advising people to drink as much as they can, and putting Capston full strength on prescription.
    You realise you are reciting a scene from the satirical comedy show Yes Minister from the 1980s? I'm never quite sure whether you are actually serious or not as your posts are sometimes so ridiculous that I do wonder if they are some kind of black humour.

    By the way, the documentary in your OP (presumably "Hospital") at no point claimed that immigrants were the cause of the problems - this is just your opinion and was not at all supported by the documentary - I don't even recall it being mentioned at all. In fact, a previous series of this focused on the people in the hospital who go around invoicing and collecting money from those who are not entitled to free NHS care.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Javert View Post
    So ethnic minorities are more likely to develop certain illnesses - so what? What is your conclusion from this?
    My conclusion is the same as the conclusion I came to about thirty five years ago when I was a medical biochemist

    It is a fact, which some political ideologies are unhappy to have to admit, that the black, the minority ethnic and in particular the mixed race are, for reasons little more than the fall of a dice roll more susceptible to certain medical conditions. Just as the white race are more susceptible to others. Why that may be we could argue about for years and not get anywhere. It just happens that non whites suffer diseases for which organ transplants are the only current cure in statistically greater numbers than whites. That's it. apart from the fact the NHS Transplant Service has figures that back up those statements which have been made not by me but by the NHS Transplant Service.

    I knew this thirty five years ago from the results of path lab assays of liver function. Even then we knew that the normal range for certain liver functions varied according to the colour of the skin, but when you work in a field where clinical results have a coefficient of variation of thirty per cent and lab rats used to test thalidomide's efficacy as a morning sickness drug show false positives because some jerk did all the tests in the day time and rats are nocturnal ... what can you do.

    Fact is my liver will withstand punishment by alcohol far more than Diane Abbott's and X and Y chromosomes are piss all to do with it ... Live with it...

    The eugenecists amongst us might like to point a few fingers, of course
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    Lord Clyde: "Ayrshire Pullman Motor Services V Inland Revenue, 1929"

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnofgwent View Post
    It is a fact, which some political ideologies are unhappy to have to admit, that the black, the minority ethnic and in particular the mixed race are, for reasons little more than the fall of a dice roll .....

    I knew this thirty five years ago from the results of path lab assays of liver function. Even then we knew that the normal range for certain liver functions varied according to the colour of the skin
    I didn't question the finding.

    You yourself say this is the result of a dice roll.

    Your comment about he colour of the skin could be taken by some to imply that the skin colour is causal to the liver status. In fact, this is just luck - it could just have easily been that during evolution white people became more prone to specific liver conditions. As such, it just happens by chance that the people who have this genetic makeup also often have different colour skin.

    I'm not sure why you would be using this during a political campaign to be elected though.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Javert View Post
    I didn't question the finding.

    You yourself say this is the result of a dice roll.

    Your comment about he colour of the skin could be taken by some to imply that the skin colour is causal to the liver status. In fact, this is just luck - it could just have easily been that during evolution white people became more prone to specific liver conditions. As such, it just happens by chance that the people who have this genetic makeup also often have different colour skin.

    I'm not sure why you would be using this during a political campaign to be elected though.
    And we have a winner... let's just say you'll need my degree, and my nephew's Ph.D work in the same field, and the literature of a few hundred research projects, to conclude the bleeding obvious, and that really I have other things to do. I knew as soon as I connected the functional deficiencies to what was then called "the Afro Asian MN- blood group subtype" back in 83 that there was in fact a direct connection between the colour of the skin and the deficiency in the liver...

    The crazy thing is how NOT a "dice roll" that sub group actually is. In the days before DNA was king and Blood Groups ruled, all i had to do to cover my tracks if i murdered someone and left blood evidence of my own was sprinkle a little vinegar around, enough to hydrolyse the end chains on my own blood groups which would expose the underlying structure which would be falsely identified as that afro asian subtype and then the met would be looking for a six foot three shaft and not a six foot three thor ..

    And the significance of that is that most european blood groups BUILD a structure similar to the above mentioned blood group, but then take things further and build extra sugars into the glycoproteins on top. That is because we have extra steps in our enzyme pathways, extra options, allowing us to put extra padding on nasty toxins the liver sees, that remove the toxicity of the toxin because now it has extra bits if sugar molecules all over it that interfere with its ability to muck about in our metabolism, which reduces the damage it can do to us before it is eliminated by the lungs kidneys or arse ...whereas those who do not possess that extra capacity, whose blood group construction ends without those finishing touches the white man has in his genes, have the problem of the same toxins being more potent, doing more damage as they float round in the blood, or fester in the kidneys en route to the bladder , or the colon ...

    Do you now see ???

    And the point about using the transplant policy in a political campaign ... was that the welsh assembly were already whingeing that there were not enough organs and were bringing in a mandatory organ theft law... it seemed handy at the time to expose why ... and more than one welsh assembly member admitted it, although the bbc has long removed the evidence they put up of their speech on the subject ...
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    Lord Clyde: "Ayrshire Pullman Motor Services V Inland Revenue, 1929"

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnofgwent View Post
    Do you now see ???
    Not exactly.

    Correlation doesn't mean causation. I'm not disputing what you are saying. My point is that the blood group, skin colour, and liver status is at root determined by the genetic makeup and DNA of the person (plus environmental factors for the last one of course but leaving them aside).

    You state there is a correlation. However this doesn't mean we can say that having dark skin causes liver weakness. This is the same as saying, for example, that because low pressure causes wind and rain, that wind causes rain. It's a correlation but not causal.

    So what you may say? These type of statements are picked up by racists and xenophobes to then use it to claim that one race is superior to another. As you yourself admitted, European people may have other weaknesses or differences which are in some ways negative compared to other ethnic groups.

    This type of information should not be used to make unethical conclusions, and given the OP of this thread, it may appear to some that you are saying we should stop immigration because immigrants cost more in medical treatment than non immigrants or something like that - this is not an overall conclusion you could draw just from looking at transplant requirements.

    It's also stated in the OP that immigrants cost the economy much more than they give back - there's lots of facts and data available which seems to indicate the opposite is true.

    Also as stated above, liver transplants need to be matched up to the person, so you generally need someone of the same ethnicity to you to give you their liver (I realise I am simplifying here but the article you linked also says the same). Therefore it would be wrong to imply, if that's what you are doing, that "immigrants stole our white livers".

    Also, do you have any data that shows that immigration of other ethnic groups is a large factor in the increased requirements for transplants? I suspect that other factors are much bigger.

    I'm not really seeing a link between whether organ donation should be an opt-in or opt-out system and the above discussions - as far as I know, in Wales you can still refuse to donate your organs, but you have to opt out rather than opt in. I'm not sure how this is "organ theft".

    Also, anecdotally from what I know speaking to hospital staff, if the family of a deceased person are against using their organs for transplants, even if the person who is dead had opted in, often the families wishes are allowed overrule that (which in my opinion is wrong but that's a matter of debate).

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