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Thread: Taking Back Control Mk2

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by morayloon View Post
    The vote in Scotland was carried out in Scotland and that vote was 62-38 in favour of Remain. Yet, because of a much smaller English majority (big enough for the 62 not to matter) we are being forced out of the EU.We were promised that we would be equal with England. That concept didn't last long, did it?
    So what - 'Scotland' as an entity, just like 'England' is not independent, and neither are 'MEMBERS of the EU by country, but by virtue of being members of the UK. Various parts of England also voted to remain - however - as I stated before - it was a UK referendum - and it was the UK that was to decide whether or not to remain or leave....surely that is a simple enough concept to understand? ....now if Scotland had previously voted for independence.....
    We went in to the Union because more of those members of the Estates were ready to take English Gold rather than look after the good of their country. There was rioting throughout Scotland when the result was known.
    Geez Moray - you must be much older than I thought....however, irrespective of the background, Scotland IS is a member of the United Kingdom.
    That was 2014. Things have moved on. Brexit for example. Scotland's voice has been silenced, our democratic rights trampled underfoot. Sturgeon talked about 'a material change of circstance' which could provoke Indyref2. Brexit was one
    Well let's both hope that you get another chance, and start taking EU gold instead of English gold. Scotland have more of a say on their affairs than do the English, because of the Scottish numpty duet...however, best of luck on getting another Independence referendum.....I wish they would play fair, and grant England one...who knows, you might even have a chance of getting your wish by that route!!
    Every time we get kicked in the teeth will be another step towards our ultimate goal. We will be starting Indyref2 from a base of 45% (polls have shown the level of support for Independence has not moved much from the Indyref level). We only need to persuade another 6% to back the cause and, given the 20% jump in support last time, that is not a forlorn aim.
    Yeah - you have your own Parliament, yet YOU believe you have been kicked in the teeth!! Scotland's remainers are just like the remainers in England ,Wales and NI.....they LOST the UK vote, tuff - time you got over it....there were plenty of 'Remainers' in England too, but overall, the UK reflected more votes for remaining than for leaving.... and as I keep having to point out - it WAS a UK referendum...because it is the UK that has membership of the EU...not the individual nations that form the UK.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevlin View Post
    So what - 'Scotland' as an entity, just like 'England' is not independent, and neither are 'MEMBERS of the EU by country, but by virtue of being members of the UK. Various parts of England also voted to remain - however - as I stated before - it was a UK referendum - and it was the UK that was to decide whether or not to remain or leave....surely that is a simple enough concept to understand? ....now if Scotland had previously voted for independence.....
    Whether you like ir not, we were told we were equal with England. If that is so then our vote should count for something not just ignored. England got its way yet again by trampling on the democratic decision of the Scots.
    The results in those various parts of England must be congratulated but they are just as you describe them, 'areas of England'.
    If it was a Yes vote we would not have been part of the farcical Brexit Referendum.

    Scotland have more of a say on their affairs than do the English, because of the Scottish numpty duet...
    The English Parliament, Westminster, ensures that England controls the UK and that the other countries must 'know their place'.

    Yeah - you have your own Parliament, yet YOU believe you have been kicked in the teeth!!
    No! Not believe. Know! 62% was trumped by a much smaller majority in another country.

    Scotland's remainers are just like the remainers in England ,Wales and NI.....they LOST the UK vote, tuff - time you got over it....there were plenty of 'Remainers' in England too, but overall, the UK reflected more votes for remaining than for leaving.... and as I keep having to point out - it WAS a UK referendum...because it is the UK that has membership of the EU...not the individual nations that form the UK.
    Nobody denies that it was a UK Referendum. What I am pointing out is the democratic deficit that Scotland has within this State - hence many of us believe we should get out.
    Each country should have had a veto. If the countries did not agree then the status quo should have prevailed. In the end 2 countries voted Remain and 2 Leave, Instead we had the unfair scenario of a small majority of the English Electorate getting their way and Scotland dragged along with them .

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by morayloon View Post
    Whether you like ir not, we were told we were equal with England. If that is so then our vote should count for something not just ignored. England got its way yet again by trampling on the democratic decision of the Scots.
    The results in those various parts of England must be congratulated but they are just as you describe them, 'areas of England'.
    If it was a Yes vote we would not have been part of the farcical Brexit Referendum.
    Of course you are 'equal' with England .... just like me, you are equally franchised, your individual rights are the same as mine etc. etc. - your whingeing is purely because you lost the UK vote, over a UK issue...and so did many of the English too....but a lot of them have now stopped whingeing about it, and are supporting the DEMOCRATIC result of a UK referendum!! Yes, I too would have been upset if Brexit had been outvoted because of the votes of ANY other British nation...but I wouldn't have kept on 'greetin' about it!! - because it WAS a democratic result.
    The English Parliament, Westminster, ensures that England controls the UK and that the other countries must 'know their place'.
    No! Not believe. Know! 62% was trumped by a much smaller majority in another country.
    Wrong - the majority of the UK, voted in a UK referendum - because, I will repeat, it was a UK issue! - it wasn't an issue for individual UK countries to decide for their country, because their countries are NOT members of the EU in their own right, but only members by dint of being in the UK.
    Nobody denies that it was a UK Referendum. What I am pointing out is the democratic deficit that Scotland has within this State - hence many of us believe we should get out.
    Unlike the Scots, we English don't have our own Parliament.....unlike the Scots...what a bloody waste of money!! Of course you are denying it was a UK issue - your constant whingeing about the result because Scotland as a whole wished to remain makes that very clear.
    Each country should have had a veto. If the countries did not agree then the status quo should have prevailed. In the end 2 countries voted Remain and 2 Leave, Instead we had the unfair scenario of a small majority of the English Electorate getting their way and Scotland dragged along with them .
    Nonsense - the entire population (of voting age), of the UK had an equally powered vote on a UK issue...and the majority of UK citizens voted to LEAVE - democracy in action .The 'leave' votes from those Brexiteers in Scotland , Wales and Ireland also played their part in the result.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevlin View Post
    Of course you are 'equal' with England ....
    To be equal with England, Scotland (NE Ireland & Wales) need to be considered as a country making up the UK. On important decisions the countries should have the power to block any important matter. To do otherwise means, by force of numbers, England always gets her way e.g. Brexit.

    your whingeing is purely because you lost the UK vote, over a UK issue
    Not whingeing. merely pointing out reality. Scotland voted 62 - 38 to stay but we are being forced out because England (and Wales) voted to Leave by a relatively small margin. The view of the vast majority of Scots was completely ignored.

    and so did many of the English too....but a lot of them have now stopped whingeing about it, and are supporting the DEMOCRATIC result of a UK referendum!!
    The English voted to Leave, the remainers (just like we did in 2014) are right to accept the will of the English majority. However, the will of the Scottish majority is being trampled underfoot.
    Yes, I too would have been upset if Brexit had been outvoted because of the votes of ANY other British nation...but I wouldn't have kept on 'greetin' about it!! - because it WAS a democratic result
    Believe me, we will keep on pointing out the existence of a democratic deficit in the UK state whereby, regardless of the will of the Scottish people, the English can negate it. That is not equality!

    Wrong - the majority of the UK, voted in a UK referendum - because, I will repeat, it was a UK issue!
    I do not deny this. So why keep harping on about it.

    it wasn't an issue for individual UK countries to decide for their country, because their countries are NOT members of the EU in their own right, but only members by dint of being in the UK
    We were promised equality between the countries of the UK. That means there should be equal say. One country should not dominate just because it has a much bigger population.

    Unlike the Scots, we English don't have our own Parliament
    Westminster, with its massive inbuilt majority, acts as the English Parliament. Why on earth would you want another Parliament? ... that would be a waste of money!!!
    what a bloody waste of money!!
    It is our money. We will spend it as we wish.

    Of course you are denying it was a UK issue - your constant whingeing about the result because Scotland as a whole wished to remain makes that very clear
    Of course I am not denying it at all. You just (deliberately?) do not understand the my comments. Your view is merely accepting that Scots are a subjugated people, we are second class citizens. Our views are not important and are thus ignored.

    Nonsense - the entire population (of voting age), of the UK had an equally powered vote on a UK issue...and the majority of UK citizens voted to LEAVE - democracy in action .The 'leave' votes from those Brexiteers in Scotland , Wales and Ireland also played their part in the result.
    Not nonsense! If the countries of the UK are equal then there must be equal representation. Why should Scotland be forced out because of the votes in another country?

  6. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by morayloon View Post
    To be equal with England, Scotland (NE Ireland & Wales) need to be considered as a country making up the UK. On important decisions the countries should have the power to block any important matter. To do otherwise means, by force of numbers, England always gets her way e.g. Brexit.
    You are talking through your hat as usual!! The UK referendum on the continuing membership of the EU WAS , and IS a UK issue....NOT an individual UK country....You would be happy enough if the votes in ENGLAND had resulted in remaining....EQUALITY is invested in the individuals of the UK citizens....and it clearly cannot be otherwise.
    It would be absolutely undemocratic if your claimed required ability to block a UK decision was allowed - that is an absolute nonsense claim. Whilst Scotland is a part of the UK, democracy IS being practised via a UK INDIVIDUAL citizen vote....so, until you get your 'independence' wish, the democratic UK referenda results must stand - whether you personally like the outcome or not. After all, there are many disappointed English voters too who are upset at the result....but that is hardly unusual is it - it also happens as a result of every general election!!

    Not whingeing. merely pointing out reality. Scotland voted 62 - 38 to stay but we are being forced out because England (and Wales) voted to Leave by a relatively small margin. The view of the vast majority of Scots was completely ignored.
    You are indeed whingeing - see above.
    The English voted to Leave, the remainers (just like we did in 2014) are right to accept the will of the English majority. However, the will of the Scottish majority is being trampled underfoot.
    Believe me, we will keep on pointing out the existence of a democratic deficit in the UK state whereby, regardless of the will of the Scottish people, the English can negate it. That is not equality!
    Again, see above.
    I do not deny this. So why keep harping on about it.
    Rubbish - you continue to fail to accept that areas in all 4 countries voted to remain too - but MOST UK voters wished to leave.....it was a UK decision.

    We were promised equality between the countries of the UK. That means there should be equal say. One country should not dominate just because it has a much bigger population.
    You have it - UK referendum results are decided upon the wished of UK citizens. Do you really believe that each UK country should have an equal voting power? The ONLY solution to your particular 'problem' is for Scotland to go independent - and, unlike England, you have already had that opportunity...

    It is our money. We will spend it as we wish.
    No it isn't - you benefit from the Barnett formula...as well as having a ridiculously wasteful, and undemocratic 'devolved' Parliament If money can be wasted of providing Scotland with an unnecessary Parliament, then the English, should have a democratic right to have money wasted on an unnecessary English Parliament...we could then maybe get a vote/referendum for OUR independence...

    Of course I am not denying it at all. You just (deliberately?) do not understand the my comments. Your view is merely accepting that Scots are a subjugated people, we are second class citizens. Our views are not important and are thus ignored.

    Not nonsense! If the countries of the UK are equal then there must be equal representation. Why should Scotland be forced out because of the votes in another country?
    You are continuing to talk absolute nonsense - as a UK citizen, you Scots have more rights than the English...we poor Anglos don't have our own Parliament , get less per head from the Treasury to spend etc etc....you just don't know when you are well off!! If ALL the Scots / Welsh and NI voters had voted to 'Remain', then clearly the English majority could have been disappointed....but I suspect that most, ( just like the majority of Scots I suspect), would have accepted that result because it WAS democracy in action for the UK!!

  7. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevlin View Post
    You are talking through your hat as usual!! The UK referendum on the continuing membership of the EU WAS , and IS a UK issue....NOT an individual UK country....You would be happy enough if the votes in ENGLAND had resulted in remaining....EQUALITY is invested in the individuals of the UK citizens....and it clearly cannot be otherwise.
    The point is there should have been a veto in place. Why should England get her way to the detriment of Scotland & NE Ireland? I can just imagine the furore if the results in Scotland & NE Ireland had swung things for Remain.

    It would be absolutely undemocratic if your claimed required ability to block a UK decision was allowed - that is an absolute nonsense claim
    But it is ok for the English to completely ignore the Scots - but then there is nothing new in that!

    Whilst Scotland is a part of the UK, democracy IS being practised via a UK INDIVIDUAL citizen vote....so, until you get your 'independence' wish, the democratic UK referenda results must stand - whether you personally like the outcome or not. After all, there are many disappointed English voters too who are upset at the result....but that is hardly unusual is it - it also happens as a result of every general election!!
    The point is that we were promised equality with England. Where is that equality now?


    You are indeed whingeing - see above.
    Again, see above
    Are you trying to tell me there wasn't a 62-38 vote in Scotland? Or that there wasn't a tiny majority in England? How can you say that the Scots views are being taken into account when the result palpably shows the opposite to be the case. Are you suggesting that the Yessers did not accept the result in 2014? Whether you like it or not, there is democratic deficit in the UK and it is not the English that suffer because of it. But, you know,I really couldn't give a toss what you think.

    Rubbish - you continue to fail to accept that areas in all 4 countries voted to remain too - but MOST UK voters wished to leave.....it was a UK decision
    Rubbish! Not one area in Scotland voted leave!!! The point you fail to grasp is that the UK is not a synonym for England. There are other countries involved in this dis-United Kingdom. Yet the views of the non English population are, in the main, ignored. Unless of course the view tallies with the English one.

    You have it - UK referendum results are decided upon the wished of UK citizens. Do you really believe that each UK country should have an equal voting power?
    I would not have mentioned it otherwise.

    The ONLY solution to your particular 'problem' is for Scotland to go independent - and, unlike England, you have already had that opportunity
    England doesn't need Independence. She gets her way all the time.

    No it isn't - you benefit from the Barnett formula
    Ah! Barnett!!! The money that comes back to Scotland is part of the money raised in Scotland.

    as well as having a ridiculously wasteful, and undemocratic 'devolved' Parliament
    Perhaps you could expand on that little 'statement'?

    If money can be wasted of providing Scotland with an unnecessary Parliament
    If the money is wasted, it is our money. So, it has absolutely nothing to do with you or your countrymen.

    then the English, should have a democratic right to have money wasted on an unnecessary English Parliament
    Westminster IS your Parliament. Money is and has been wasted on it.

    we could then maybe get a vote/referendum for OUR independence
    As I said, why bother? The English already dominate Parliament and England does what England wantsbecause there is no way to prevent it happening (witness Brexit)


    You are continuing to talk absolute nonsense - as a UK citizen, you Scots have more rights than the English...we poor Anglos don't have our own Parliament , get less per head from the Treasury to spend etc etc....you just don't know when you are well off!!
    What utter BS! There are reasons for Scotland's higher per capita spend. There are more remote areas and islands in this country. Their populations require the same level of services that the rest of us take for granted. Another pointer is that Water is still in public ownership here and appears as public spending - it isn't and doesn't in England!

    If ALL the Scots / Welsh and NI voters had voted to 'Remain', then clearly the English majority could have been disappointed....but I suspect that most, ( just like the majority of Scots I suspect), would have accepted that result because it WAS democracy in action for the UK!!
    For England (and Wales just happened to agree) but not for Scotland & NE Ireland I'm afraid.

  8. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by morayloon View Post
    The point is there should have been a veto in place.
    So you (keep) suggesting.

    But this was a United Kingdom referendum. On a matter that has always been a United Kingdom Issue.

    Did anyone demand Scotland be excluded from joining the EEC ?

    Did anyone demand Scotland make an independent - of - the - uk application to join the EEC when De Gaulle did his "Non" sloipey shoulder shrug.

    No they bloody well did not.

    And your small part of the whole of the UK had its chance at pissing off and chose not to.

    Live with it
    --
    "The Inland Revenue is not slow, and quite rightly, to take every advantage which is open to it under the Taxing Statutes for the purposes of depleting the taxpayer's pocket. And the taxpayer is in like manner entitled to be astute to prevent, so far as he honestly can, the depletion of his means by the Inland Revenue"

    Lord Clyde: "Ayrshire Pullman Motor Services V Inland Revenue, 1929"

  9. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnofgwent View Post
    So you (keep) suggesting.
    But this was a United Kingdom referendum. On a matter that has always been a United Kingdom Issue.
    Did anyone demand Scotland be excluded from joining the EEC ?
    Did anyone demand Scotland make an independent - of - the - uk application to join the EEC when De Gaulle did his "Non" sloipey shoulder shrug.
    No they bloody well did not.
    And your small part of the whole of the UK had its chance at pissing off and chose not to.
    Live with it
    Well, actually they did. Like all countries of the UK Scotland voted to stay in the EEC.The SNP was part of the out campaign. The reasoning was that Scotland should not be forced to do anything against its will: "No voice, No Entry" was one of the their slogans another being "No - on any one else's terms". The party hoped for a different result in Scotland than in England but this did not happen. However it did in 2016. A massive majority was overturned by a slim majority in the rUK. Scotland, as always, is ignored. We have to abide by the result in another country. We are being dragged out against our will

  10. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by morayloon View Post
    Well, actually they did. Like all countries of the UK Scotland voted to stay in the EEC.The SNP was part of the out campaign. The reasoning was that Scotland should not be forced to do anything against its will: "No voice, No Entry" was one of the their slogans another being "No - on any one else's terms". The party hoped for a different result in Scotland than in England but this did not happen. However it did in 2016. A massive majority was overturned by a slim majority in the rUK. Scotland, as always, is ignored. We have to abide by the result in another country. We are being dragged out against our will
    Geeez Moray - after ALL this time, you still don't get it!! Most of Scotland and N Ireland did indeed vote to remain in the EU - as did many English and Welsh voters.....but a) NONE of the constituent UK countries are in the EU by virtue of their particular national identity, and b) IT was (therefore a UNITED KINGDOM ISSUE, DECIDED by the result of the UNITED KINGDOM vote....IF the UK referendum result had only slightly more England voters wishing to leave, and the Scotland, Welsh and Northern Ireland votes had resulted in an overall majority for remaining, then England would have to remain against their wishes too - but that is democracy in action for the UK...... which IS the EU memberwhether you like it or not!!

    You are IN the EU as a member state of the UK....and will go OUT of the EU accordingly...


  11. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by morayloon View Post
    Well, actually they did. Like all countries of the UK Scotland voted to stay in the EEC.The SNP was part of the out campaign. The reasoning was that Scotland should not be forced to do anything against its will: "No voice, No Entry" was one of the their slogans another being "No - on any one else's terms". The party hoped for a different result in Scotland than in England but this did not happen. However it did in 2016. A massive majority was overturned by a slim majority in the rUK. Scotland, as always, is ignored. We have to abide by the result in another country. We are being dragged out against our will
    Yes they did, and as a result of the UK democratic vote, the UK remained ----however, the EEC is a far cry from the EU, so it is ridiculous to compare the two. And your reasoning is , as usual , incorrect, as it was STILL a UK referendum.....and IF the result then had been for leaving, then Scotland , as would the rest of the UK, have left the EEC as a result of the UK referendum.
    In fact, had Scotland, as a constituent nation of the UK voted then to leave the EEC, they would nevertheless have remained in the EEC ,against their wishes......because even then, it was a UK issue!!

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