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Thread: Making Begging A crime ? But it is already !

  1. #1
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    Making Begging A crime ? But it is already !

    OK. As I start this thread, I'd like to set a few ground rules here (shock horror for me I know)

    I'm seeking information which I seem to be having a hard time finding. Maybe I'm not looking in the right place or the right way.

    As far as I'm concerned, when (if) someone finds me the answer this thread can be locked down as for me it will have established its purpose.

    I'm rather keen for this NOT to go the way of another thread on the subject of begging that got train wrecked and had to be closed. I looked and did not see any post there (again, if I've overlooked something, someone say so here, link to what I missed and get a mod to lock this thread) that made reference to legislation coming into force in april 2018

    So here we go

    I have noticed a number of claims on various blogs social media posts and the like, all of which I consider to be suspect, that "as of next month begging will be illegal"

    I have a big problem with this claim as begging has been illegal in England and Wales since the vagrancy act received royal assent a hundred and ninety four years ago. I will admit that in scotland beggars who sit quietly and receive money are acting within scottish law.

    In my search for some justification for this claim that an action made illegal 194 years ago "is to be made illegal next month" my phone very briefly tripped over a blog it cannot now find again (and neither can my pc browser) that suggested new legislation is coming into force next month which will make the arrestable offence of begging contrary to the vagrancy act a RECORDABLE offence.

    I have a grave problem with that suggestion also, for it is relatively easy for google to return search results that clearly state TONY BLAIR of all people presided over the introduction of legislation that made arrests under the vagrancy act recordable, in hope that the figures recorded might be used against (presumably tory) councils with large numbers of arrested vagrants.

    SO

    What is this BS about begging "becoming" an arrestable offence next month.
    --
    "The Inland Revenue is not slow, and quite rightly, to take every advantage which is open to it under the Taxing Statutes for the purposes of depleting the taxpayer's pocket. And the taxpayer is in like manner entitled to be astute to prevent, so far as he honestly can, the depletion of his means by the Inland Revenue"

    Lord Clyde: "Ayrshire Pullman Motor Services V Inland Revenue, 1929"

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    Is this any use or is it not?
    http://www.politics.co.uk/reference/begging
    Begging was made a recordable offence in December 2003 as part of the Government's drive to tackle crime and anti-social behaviour.
    Other than that, for England and Wales I'm not aware of any recent changes to Section 4 of the Vagrancy Act 1824, nor to the penalties attached.
    https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga...5/83/section/4

    Is that within the ground rules?

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    Sorry for intruding I understand you are just looking for an answer, so I will only say two short points

    1) Begging is illegal already from what I have observed on you-tube

    2) It is unlawful for begging to be illegal , leaving the individual no option but to commit a crime. (aiding and abetting crime by having such a legislation)


    Objectively creating a ''law'' that creates crime is a crime.

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    No need to apologise either of you. I think you have both found the sort of stuff I have found

    A bit of background perhaps; locally we have a problem with a growing number of increasingly aggressive, intimidating beggars who have taken it upon themselves to camp out on the streets of the city centre right next to every one of the town centre's cash machines. I'm trying to find out the facts before I go "mano a mano" very publicly in our local council chamber with one or two of the local burghers. I have made some tentative enquiries of some officials but they drew the same conclusions as Barry. I don't want to create too big a fuss locally as I don't really want to give one or two local individuals who are even more corrupt the heads up so they take the glory for taking a few people round here down a peg befoe I can get a chance.

    My trepidation at opening this thread stems from a search of the forum and discovery of a thread on the subject of aggressive beggars that the mods had to lock down after it became a serious train wreck. I really don't want to see a repeat of that here. Cheers
    --
    "The Inland Revenue is not slow, and quite rightly, to take every advantage which is open to it under the Taxing Statutes for the purposes of depleting the taxpayer's pocket. And the taxpayer is in like manner entitled to be astute to prevent, so far as he honestly can, the depletion of his means by the Inland Revenue"

    Lord Clyde: "Ayrshire Pullman Motor Services V Inland Revenue, 1929"

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnofgwent View Post
    No need to apologise either of you. I think you have both found the sort of stuff I have found

    A bit of background perhaps; locally we have a problem with a growing number of increasingly aggressive, intimidating beggars who have taken it upon themselves to camp out on the streets of the city centre right next to every one of the town centre's cash machines. I'm trying to find out the facts before I go "mano a mano" very publicly in our local council chamber with one or two of the local burghers. I have made some tentative enquiries of some officials but they drew the same conclusions as Barry. I don't want to create too big a fuss locally as I don't really want to give one or two local individuals who are even more corrupt the heads up so they take the glory for taking a few people round here down a peg befoe I can get a chance.

    My trepidation at opening this thread stems from a search of the forum and discovery of a thread on the subject of aggressive beggars that the mods had to lock down after it became a serious train wreck. I really don't want to see a repeat of that here. Cheers

    Surely the lawful thing to do is to outlaw aggressive begging? I see no harm if a desperate individual sits there quietly with a sign. Maybe the best option would to be in having selected begging areas in each city.
    Obvious people in desperation need to beg or they might as well just jump off a bridge. The obvious best solution to the problem is give them support and somewhere to live, maybe set up a few unused fields and pitch a tent city for them . Where we could have helping staff that help them back into society.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lawfully View Post
    Surely the lawful thing to do is to outlaw aggressive begging? I see no harm if a desperate individual sits there quietly with a sign. Maybe the best option would to be in having selected begging areas in each city.
    Obvious people in desperation need to beg or they might as well just jump off a bridge. The obvious best solution to the problem is give them support and somewhere to live, maybe set up a few unused fields and pitch a tent city for them . Where we could have helping staff that help them back into society.
    Yes but in many cases the very same authorities have caused the problem in the first place, e.g. someone gets a 6 month dole sanction and can't afford to pay the rent and loses the property. How is someone expected to believe the very people who put them in this position are the ones who are going to get them out of it?

    Here's a real life example. Chap in Hereford gets evicted where he claims it was an illegal eviction. He takes them to court. One year later he is still waiting for the court and begs in the centre of Bristol and is of course still homeless. Who runs the courts? Ah could that be the authorities? See what I mean. After a while you learn that they are the problem and not the solution. When they say 'help', you read that as 'attack'.
    Toiler on the sea

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baron von Lotsov View Post
    Yes but in many cases the very same authorities have caused the problem in the first place, e.g. someone gets a 6 month dole sanction and can't afford to pay the rent and loses the property. How is someone expected to believe the very people who put them in this position are the ones who are going to get them out of it?

    Here's a real life example. Chap in Hereford gets evicted where he claims it was an illegal eviction. He takes them to court. One year later he is still waiting for the court and begs in the centre of Bristol and is of course still homeless. Who runs the courts? Ah could that be the authorities? See what I mean. After a while you learn that they are the problem and not the solution. When they say 'help', you read that as 'attack'.

    Sanctions and the cause of the homeless is a different topic to this topic. At the moment I am just adding my piece trying to protect the already homeless and stop them having more unlawfulness actions on them. Not that my voice counts or anyone will listen.

    I will be happy to discuss this in another thread if you start one sir. I have lots of ideas about sanctions.

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    Beggars should be used for army target practice. Problem solved !!
    Keep Britain British, whoops, it's to late

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