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Thread: Do we know what we were voting for in the referendum?

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Javert View Post
    I did not mention the UK in my first statement I said the UN - in response to your UN jibe. As I said before, either you struggle with metaphors and other abstract concepts, or you are deliberately taking them literally in order to try to score points, so I will try to stick to basic and relevant information in future.

    The EU is not a sovereign body in law, nor by the dictionary definition.

    You linked me to an essay article by a law student with a big disclaimer at the top, and even that article does not state that the EU is legally a sovereign body. Have you got any actual facts by reputable sources?
    Most sensible people would have realised that I had made a typo... sorry for confusing you.

    The EU has PRIMACY of legislation - no matter what you say, and that GIVES it legislative SOVEREIGNTY.... that is what is invested in the so called Sovereignty of Parliament......https://www.parliament.uk/about/how/role/sovereignty/
    Is that source considered sufficiently reputable?

  2. #52
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    A perfect thread to emphasise the point of moving goalposts. Stevlin, I think, queried the proof of 80% of economists being against Brexit. Once it was provided we move on to sovereignty...

    Al I have to say is what I have previously posted.

    Sovereignty is more difficult issue to address as the Tories havenít decided what to do yet. Still, on the status quo, whilst I agree I understand why some feel as they do on this point, I see our membership as being a powerful & influential voice within the EU (& subsequently the world) as a country that leads in forging wide ranging policies, rules, laws & regulations that make the EU & of course the U.K. a better place. Thatís why so many people want to come here which ultimately we should see as a compliment. Not one such rule, law or regulation has ever to my knowledge been singled out as thatís the first thing we would change. And of course, we have the power of veto to ultimately ensure we currently never have to accept anything we vehemently oppose. Our opt outs of the Euro, Schengen, our rebate & power within the EU can only, ironically, be described as a cake & eat it deal & a fantastic example of our power to negotiate such a deal. The Germans get accused of running the EU, yet they have none of these opt-outs or extras.

    I donít recall voting for the Governor of the Bank of England, the House of Lords, the appointment of Ministers or when a handful of MPís &/ or party members elected a new leader hence having a PM that has not gone before the electorate?

    Any of these fantasy trade deals we strike will mean adopting certain rules, laws & regulations anyway. Also, our First Past the Post system is much maligned & an antiquated system, whereas MEPís are elected on a regional system based on proportionate representation. In 2015, UKIP had almost 3.8m votes for 1 seat, the SNP under 1.5m for 56 seats. Ironically, UKIP were the main beneficiaries of the much fairer EU electoral format. Our MPís & the political process are continually dismissed as out of touch & often far worse, not to mention many being called traitors for ensuring our democracy/ sovereignty is upheld. Then of course thereís our judicial system that has been dismissed as ďthe enemies of the people.Ē And of course, whilst both points are improving, voter apathy & a heavily imbalanced media, though the usual sources, newspapers, are fast losing their influence as people source factual information for themselves, carry far too much influence with both the electorate & polticians.

    It was also rather amusing to see Farage openly muse on his radio show on LBC whether being an MP or an MEP would enable him to influence U.K. politics most before matter of factly saying the EU would provide him with an ďunparalleled platform.Ē So after that, Iím not really sure whatís left for Brexiteers to reclaim in the name of sovereignty. Or anything for that matter.

  3. #53
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    Every 5 years the people get he chance to boot out the Government - how often do we get the chance to boot out the EU Commission?

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevlin View Post
    What a stupid comment to make!!.....and, as usual- without any credible support...maybe you could attempt to indicate where there exists a NON-FEDERATION of STATES with an unelected Executive, a surplus Parliament, global ''EMBASSIES'', freedom of movement , common currency, transferring of monies from a wealthier country to a poorer country etc, etc. - ALL federal trappings, with an alliance of nations supposedly formed for obtaining mutually advantageous trade......and maybe you could count the FACTS that have been written in this post.....and aside from attempting to credibly negating them, try, instead of coming up with facetious inanities.... albeit, I usually believe that individuals should indulge in anything in which they excel ....make a sensible contribution.
    I already said there isn't another institution like the EU in the world. I have not disputed that point so I'm not sure why you keep repeating it.

    I assume by facts you are referring to:

    - The EU commision is not (directly) elected - correct.
    - There exists an EU parliament - correct
    - The EU has embassies - wrong. (although it does have some diplomatic missions and offices around the world).
    - Common currency - correct, but it's optional and each member state had to agree on it individually.
    - Transferring monies from a wealthier country to a poorer country - correct.

    So some of the things you listed are facts. What's your point?

    My point was that none of these things you list makes the EU a federal state, and none of them proves that the EU will become a federal state.

    I'm not arguing with your right to want to leave the EU because of all the facts you list above. I am stating that you cannot conclude from this that it's 100% sure that the EU will become a federal state, and that the UK, if it remains within, will be forced against the UK parliament's wishes to join the federation of USE.

    It's never been clear whether you want to leave the EU because of the already above facts, or because of what you claim they will lead to in future.

    If it's the latter, given that we could leave at any moment, why not wait until it actually happens rather than leaving in advance because of something that might happen in the future? Before you say "This was our only chance to leave" - a federal superstate being created with subjugates the UK to EU federal jurisdiction would require a referendum in its own right - you could say no to that one, and it's highly possible that I would also vote against it as well. However it hasn't been proposed yet so it's speculation and not a real thing that's happening.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stevlin View Post
    Most sensible people would have realised that I had made a typo... sorry for confusing you.

    The EU has PRIMACY of legislation - no matter what you say, and that GIVES it legislative SOVEREIGNTY.... that is what is invested in the so called Sovereignty of Parliament......https://www.parliament.uk/about/how/role/sovereignty/
    Is that source considered sufficiently reputable?
    So now you have linked me to a UK parliament article about sovereignty when we were discussing your statement that the EU is a sovereign body.

    At the bottom of the article you linked, it clearly says:

    These developments do not fundamentally undermine the principle of parliamentary sovereignty, since, in theory at least, Parliament could repeal any of the laws implementing these changes.
    This article is actually written in plain English and is only about a page long - surely you could have read it and realised that it backs up my argument before posting it in support of your own.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Jefe View Post
    Every 5 years the people get he chance to boot out the Government - how often do we get the chance to boot out the EU Commission?
    Whenever you like - via the EU parliament which has the power to sack the entire commission with immediate effect.

    Lobby your MEP to get them sacked if you think they need to be changed.

    This almost happened once already in 1999, but they jumped before they were pushed.

    Also, the European commissioners are appointed by democratically elected governments, and their appointments has to be approved by the European parliament.

    It's true that they are not directly elected, but it's not true to state that they are simply appointed by some kind of secret society that nobody has any visibility on - they are appointed by the elected governments of each state.

    It's very clear when debating these issues that a large number of Brexit supporters haven't even read up on the basics of how the EU actually works or how the different bodies are appointed (this is a general comment rather than at you specifically). These views and opinions have now become so entrenched that even the basic facts of how this happens are not believed by those who voted leave, because they ignore any fact that even slightly conflicts with their prior decisions.

    There is one commissioner per member state, and the commissioners have to take an oath that during their term of office they will act in the interests of all the people of the EU.

    Edit - I didn't really know all this very well before the referendum - I looked it up instead of just believing the tabloids telling me that the EU was an undemocratic dictatorship.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Remainer View Post
    Stevlin, I think, queried the proof of 80% of economists being against Brexit. Once it was provided we move on to sovereignty...
    Oh, now it's been proven! Wow!
    those princes have accomplished most who paid little heed to keeping their promises, but who knew how to manipulate the minds of men craftily.

    Machiavelli, The Prince

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Remainer View Post
    A perfect thread to emphasise the point of moving goalposts. Stevlin, I think, queried the proof of 80% of economists being against Brexit. Once it was provided we move on to sovereignty...
    No, its you whose full of sh*t. Firstly you're crossing between threads.

    Secondly, this was the link you provided.

    https://www.ipsos.com/ipsos-mori/en-...s-views-brexit

    Nowhere was there a question, that I can see, that asks anyone if they are "for or against" Brexit. The questions are all to do with the "likely effects" of Britain leaving the EU, not the attitudes of those being asked.

    Thirdly, you've provided NOTHING in the way of proof of anything. You've provided the results of a "poll". Read the "Technical Note" at the bottom. Only 639 repondents completed the survey, when in fact -

    Overall 3,818 invitations were sent out, with a response rate of approximately 17%. For questions where respondents were asked to provide reasons for their answers, respondents were presented with a pre-defined prompt list.
    Now whose twisting information to suit his own agenda and then turning round and calling it "proof". I can think of a pre defined prompt list for you old pal.


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  9. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Javert View Post
    Whenever you like - via the EU parliament which has the power to sack the entire commission with immediate effect.

    Lobby your MEP to get them sacked if you think they need to be changed.
    But that doesnt answer my question , when do we get the chance to boot out the Commission? - the answer is never.


    Our MEP's consist of less than 10% of the EU Parliament so they cant do it.

    There is one commissioner per member state, and the commissioners have to take an oath that during their term of office they will act in the interests of all the people of the EU.
    50% of the electorate in the UK want to leave the EU so exactly how do these commissioners look after their interests?

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  11. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Jefe View Post
    But that doesnt answer my question , when do we get the chance to boot out the Commission? - the answer is never.


    Our MEP's consist of less than 10% of the EU Parliament so they cant do it.



    50% of the electorate in the UK want to leave the EU so exactly how do these commissioners look after their interests?
    It appears that by "we" you mean the UK population only.

    Why do you think that only the UK population on its own should be able to kick out the entire EU commission representing 28 different countries?

    Even you must see that would be completely undemocratic, unless you think that UK people are more important than people of other nationalities on a global level, so I guess you are then saying that you don't want us to be part of any supra national political entity unless we are in charge of it?

  12. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Jefe View Post
    Every 5 years the people get he chance to boot out the Government - how often do we get the chance to boot out the EU Commission?
    Once, El Jefe, 23rd June 2016.

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