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Thread: Do we know what we were voting for in the referendum?

  1. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevlin View Post
    Yep - the UK already has more than enough civil servants to cater for the UK's affairs - so not only do we not need another Parliament - we don't need any EU civil servants either.....you also conveniently forget that each member state ALSO has its own civil service.....now try and explain why a political entity,with a redundant Parliament, and a redundant additional civil service is a prerequisite to obtain economic growth via free trade. Despite all your asserted nonsense and bluster - you constantly fail to justify the nascent USE.....with those additional unnecessary thousands of bureaucrats, as the trading benefits would still be achieved if the EU was a mere RFTA....
    No they wouldn't.

    If the EU didn't exist and the member states just had a series of bilateral (or possibly one multilateral) FTAs (reciprocal or not) they would not remove anywhere near as many trade barriers as the SM/CU.

    Trade would, of course, still occur between countries but not to the level and complexity that it currently does.

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  3. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by beelbeeb View Post
    No they wouldn't.

    If the EU didn't exist and the member states just had a series of bilateral (or possibly one multilateral) FTAs (reciprocal or not) they would not remove anywhere near as many trade barriers as the SM/CU.

    Trade would, of course, still continue between countries but not to the level and complexity that it currently does.
    Yes they would! I do realise that secondary tariffs would not be waived - and that was clearly implicit in my comment about RFTAs , however, that so called advantage has not been sufficient to prevent UK trade with the EU in greatly declining , in favour of non-EU trade - and most of the electorate had the sense to realise the stupidity of paying a fortune to access the 'smaller' area of UK trade....the UK businesses that trade with the EU have been 'carried' by the taxpayer for far too long now - as well as the equally stupid requirement to have to be part of a political elite to access free trade!

    And yes - of course UK/EU trade will still continue.....trading benefits are not one-sided, and I suspect that non-EU trade will continue to increase when the UK is again responsible for managing its own affairs.

  4. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Javert View Post
    So I don't admit that the EU is profoundly undemocratic - not sure where you got that idea. I agree with a couple of others who posted here that the EU is arguably more democratic than the UK government in some ways. Profoundly undemocratic is yet another extreme phrase used about the EU which leaves little more powerful superlatives for states which truly are profoundly undemocratic like Russia or various others.
    Well I hate to point it out but Russia are having an election this month for the Presidency - when was the last time you got to vote for the President of the EU?



    But we have established that this exact sentence also applies to the EU.
    - It was the UK's choice to sign up to the EU.
    - It was the UK who actually pushed for the single market, the change to QMV on various issues (though not all issues).
    - The UK can cancel their membership if they wish and are currently doing so right now - that's why we are having these discussions.

    The UK is currently in the process of leaving the EU, and crucually, we did not have to apply for permission from the EU to leave - any member nation can unilaterally decide to leave the EU - I haven't heard any Brexit supporter deny this fact, and to do so would be crazy since that is exactly what the UK is doing.

    This is a point I have made many times - that your objections to the EU on principle, should also mean that you take up a position that we should leave the WTO and various other organisations.

    You now respond to that by writing a sentence which applies just as equally to the EU as it does to the other organizations and saying that this proves your point. To me it more looks like you've just pulled the rug out from under your own feet.
    No it doesnt - the WTO cannot impose Law on the UK without the UK agreeing to it, it is nothing like the EU.

    This pretence that the EU model is mirrored in ever other international organisation that the UK is a member of is totally nonsense. If the WTO tried to impose Laws on member states it would collapse tomorrow.

  5. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Jefe View Post
    Well I hate to point it out but Russia are having an election this month for the Presidency - when was the last time you got to vote for the President of the EU?
    Are they really ?

    I suppose that explains this then (from 23/1/18)

    https://www.ft.com/content/382adee4-...0-9c0ad2d7c5b5

    "It was the opposition politicianís fourth detention since he launched his campaign just over a year ago to challenge Mr Putin in the presidential elections. Last March, he was imprisoned for 15 days, and in June for 30 days. He was briefly detained again on his way to another demonstration in September. Mr Navalny was detained many more times during Russiaís last wave of anti-Putin protests in 2011 and early 2012, and spent several months under house arrest in 2014. It remained unclear on Sunday what else could be in store for the opposition leader as he appears determined to take his challenge to Mr Putin to the streets again after having been refused legal recourse. The authorities also arrested Mr Navalnyís campaign staff on Sunday in Moscow as well as several regional offices. Video footage published by Mr Navalnyís organisation showed almost a dozen police officers arriving at the foundationís Moscow office on Sunday morning and breaking down the door, before entering the studio and interrupting a live broadcast."
    --
    "The Inland Revenue is not slow, and quite rightly, to take every advantage which is open to it under the Taxing Statutes for the purposes of depleting the taxpayer's pocket. And the taxpayer is in like manner entitled to be astute to prevent, so far as he honestly can, the depletion of his means by the Inland Revenue"

    Lord Clyde: "Ayrshire Pullman Motor Services V Inland Revenue, 1929"

  6. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Jefe View Post
    Well I hate to point it out but Russia are having an election this month for the Presidency - when was the last time you got to vote for the President of the EU?
    well there are several "presidents".

    Most people mean the president of the the commission, currently JC Junker. Because of the "spitzenkandidat" system, you would have had a chance to vote for the president of the commission in 2014 and again in 2019.

    If you mean the president of the EU council then that is voted for by the council of which our elected government has 9% of the votes.

    If you mean of the parliament, then that is also voted for by the parliament in which the UK has 9% of MEPs and is usually the most prominent state in any given MEP grouping (UKIP aside)

    If you mean the presidency (as opposed to president) of the council then that would have been the UK (i.e. Theresa May) apart from the UK surrendered it's turn due to Brexit.

  7. #116
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    So the correct answer is never...

  8. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Jefe View Post
    So the correct answer is never...
    No, the correct answer is 2014, (and would have been) 2019, 2024.

    You know how in the UK you vote for a Conservative MP (and get Theresa May) or a Labour MP and get Jeremy Corbyn?

    Literally the exact same system.

    Junker was the candidate for the EPP whom the conservatives were members of until 2009.

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