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Thread: Cnd man complained soldiers at recruitment stall had guns

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnofgwent View Post
    Well as I have said on this forum before, I've only been shot at once with a real gun, that was fitted on a tank driven by a yank.

    I've been shot at and hit in anger by a jerk with an airgun but he needed a dentist big time after the second pellet hit.

    My father's generation of course knew exactly what it was like and again as I have said on here had Wilson not told lbj to stick it I think the vietnam war may have continued for a year or two more and sucked me, or my friends, into it and for that I am grateful Wilson had the balls he did.
    Right, so guns are dangerous.

    I'm surprised you find armed people on the street a surprise uganda. I worked in your neck of the woods near the turn of the century and armed officers on the street were almost a daily or should i say nightly occurrence then and more so when i returned in 2013.
    If you are talking about Leeds, I have not seen a single armed officer on the streets here since 2004 when I moved here, nor during 1992-2004, when I was a regular visitor. At least I don't remember seeing any. And I'm not blind.

    But the thing Is, I suspect CND would have protested the appearance of uniforms or anyone normally seen in them if they all stood there with flowers in their teeth and nothing else
    Except that is where you are wrong. The CND man had no objection to their presence (except he thought they shouldn't target poor areas so much, which is a valid if debatable point) or their campaign material, only their guns and that he felt they were pointed towards the shopping-centre.

    Thing is, everything he said was debatable, it's just his opinion. And opinions to the contrary are valid too. But this was painted as if what he was saying was ludicrous, and it clearly wasn't. I think he's well aware that soldiers need guns to carry out a lot of their duty and training, and does not object to that.
    It's amazing how common this narcissism is: I disagree with person A, and I also disagree with person B, therefore A and B are identical - Daniel Hannan

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnofgwent View Post
    But the thing Is, I suspect CND would have protested the appearance of uniforms or anyone normally seen in them if they all stood there with flowers in their teeth and nothing else
    I looked him up. He looks like the sort of bloke who enjoys a bit of publicity for his cause. I would hazard a guess he like Jeremy a lot.

    Its not rocket science really (sorry John, with the science bit and all that). Its well to remember that the "Army" is not a homogenous mass, it has a lot of different trades and roles. A recruiting message for engineers, as opposed to intelligence, might have a different message. But the Scots Guards are an Infantry Regiment, so its not really a big surprise that weapons are a fundamental part of what they do.

    The Army has a whole raft of SOPs relating to weapon discipline, under the general heading of "weapon handing skills". Everyone needs to be capable of the basics, but anyone in an infantry or close in support or fighting role is expected to reach very high standards in weapons discipline. That isn't just "guns". Infantry soldiers will need to be able to understand DF as well as indirect fire weapons like mortars, anti tank and anti air weapons, as well as rangefinders, vision enhancing equipment, NCB and communications equipment, to name a few. Recruiters are looking for the kind of learning and understanding qualities needed for all that. They'll learn a lot about what kind of person they are talking too by their reactions, whether there is a weapon present or not.

    I don't recall seeing recruiting teams on high streets, but at events such as military tattoos or airshows, or military museums, its not uncommon. Those are largely recreational events, so the success rate is always pretty low. Most of us will understand why many young lads bought up on computer games and tv shows will have a natural curiosity about guns, while its a pretty safe bet that someone of military age who wants to point weapons at other people and make gun sounds is probably, like 98% of people who go near an ACO or one of these events, is probably not the sort of person you want in the forces. On the other hand, many young lads have a natural technical curiosity. Someone who asks "how does this work", or "how do you do that", someone whose natural instinct is to try and understand how things work, will not look at a weapon firstly as a method of killing, but as a tool. Like all tools, weapons have to be cared for, and someone who doesn't firstly understand how weapons work will find they get let down by it when they really need it. Sometimes, its easier to see these things when you have something to focus on.

    And to be blunt, the very first thing those with no experience of real weapons notice when they pick one up is how heavy they are. Firing a General purpose machine gun, which is capable of 1000 rounds per minute, is an exhilarating experience the first time you do it. But it weighs about 15 kilos, and that's without any ammunition. Carrying one for 8 miles in the pouring rain is much less enthralling. The look of surprise on someone's face when they pick up even a relatively light modern weapon like an SA80 and realise how heavy it is can tell you an awful lot about someone's character.

    I don't think CND bloke needs to worry all that much. The vast majority of people who go near these kind of events never end up in the Army

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeppityDawg View Post
    I looked him up. He looks like the sort of bloke who enjoys a bit of publicity for his cause. I would hazard a guess he like Jeremy a lot.

    Its not rocket science really (sorry John, with the science bit and all that). Its well to remember that the "Army" is not a homogenous mass, it has a lot of different trades and roles. A recruiting message for engineers, as opposed to intelligence, might have a different message. But the Scots Guards are an Infantry Regiment, so its not really a big surprise that weapons are a fundamental part of what they do.

    The Army has a whole raft of SOPs relating to weapon discipline, under the general heading of "weapon handing skills". Everyone needs to be capable of the basics, but anyone in an infantry or close in support or fighting role is expected to reach very high standards in weapons discipline. That isn't just "guns". Infantry soldiers will need to be able to understand DF as well as indirect fire weapons like mortars, anti tank and anti air weapons, as well as rangefinders, vision enhancing equipment, NCB and communications equipment, to name a few. Recruiters are looking for the kind of learning and understanding qualities needed for all that. They'll learn a lot about what kind of person they are talking too by their reactions, whether there is a weapon present or not.

    I don't recall seeing recruiting teams on high streets, but at events such as military tattoos or airshows, or military museums, its not uncommon. Those are largely recreational events, so the success rate is always pretty low. Most of us will understand why many young lads bought up on computer games and tv shows will have a natural curiosity about guns, while its a pretty safe bet that someone of military age who wants to point weapons at other people and make gun sounds is probably, like 98% of people who go near an ACO or one of these events, is probably not the sort of person you want in the forces. On the other hand, many young lads have a natural technical curiosity. Someone who asks "how does this work", or "how do you do that", someone whose natural instinct is to try and understand how things work, will not look at a weapon firstly as a method of killing, but as a tool. Like all tools, weapons have to be cared for, and someone who doesn't firstly understand how weapons work will find they get let down by it when they really need it. Sometimes, its easier to see these things when you have something to focus on.

    And to be blunt, the very first thing those with no experience of real weapons notice when they pick one up is how heavy they are. Firing a General purpose machine gun, which is capable of 1000 rounds per minute, is an exhilarating experience the first time you do it. But it weighs about 15 kilos, and that's without any ammunition. Carrying one for 8 miles in the pouring rain is much less enthralling. The look of surprise on someone's face when they pick up even a relatively light modern weapon like an SA80 and realise how heavy it is can tell you an awful lot about someone's character.

    I don't think CND bloke needs to worry all that much. The vast majority of people who go near these kind of events never end up in the Army
    these days such events for me are more an opportunity to recall the odd month getting paid double money running round a frigate making the things that should go bang go bang, and stopping things that should not violently disassemble (as the new jargon calls it) from doing anything like that.

    as you mentioned engineers, the nearest TA centre or whatever they call them these days is a reserve for the royal engineers, or whatever they call THEM nowadays, so yes it's open days have bloody great cranes, and demos on how to put stuff together so tanks can cross rivers (which these days they do by using the motorway bridges !)

    All a pretty good excuse for the grand-daughter to show she's up for taking on the commando obstacle course ...

    i wouldn't know how heavy anything smaller than a field gun is, i'm rather proud of the fact i am the first member of my extended family the state has not compelled to pick up a gun and i never have in celebration of that fact, and i propose to keep it that way. I HAD hoped to celebrate having both eyes working after the cataract and vitrectomy ops by spending a morning on one of those clay pigeon shooting days out, but waiting jobless for the op put me in so much debt i cannot afford it and will probably die not being able to afford it.
    --
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    Lord Clyde: "Ayrshire Pullman Motor Services V Inland Revenue, 1929"

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeppityDawg View Post
    I looked him up. He looks like the sort of bloke who enjoys a bit of publicity for his cause. I would hazard a guess he like Jeremy a lot.
    What's wrong with either thing? If he seemed very like a Tory voter or a Blairite, that would have an effect on whether he had a point or not?

    Its not rocket science really (sorry John, with the science bit and all that). Its well to remember that the "Army" is not a homogenous mass, it has a lot of different trades and roles. A recruiting message for engineers, as opposed to intelligence, might have a different message. But the Scots Guards are an Infantry Regiment, so its not really a big surprise that weapons are a fundamental part of what they do.
    Yes, we all get that, I think.

    The Army has a whole raft of SOPs relating to weapon discipline, under the general heading of "weapon handing skills". Everyone needs to be capable of the basics, but anyone in an infantry or close in support or fighting role is expected to reach very high standards in weapons discipline. That isn't just "guns". Infantry soldiers will need to be able to understand DF as well as indirect fire weapons like mortars, anti tank and anti air weapons, as well as rangefinders, vision enhancing equipment, NCB and communications equipment, to name a few. Recruiters are looking for the kind of learning and understanding qualities needed for all that. They'll learn a lot about what kind of person they are talking too by their reactions, whether there is a weapon present or not.
    Yep, lots of different guns in the army, and lots of different ways of deploying them. Right.

    We have a hint of a point about learning about what type of person might be unperturbed by the presence of weapons, although some of those might be gun nuts who are not to be trusted, but I'm sure their professional judgment weeds that out. Think I'd prefer that to happen once they had gone off for an open day on a military facility though, not a shopping area.

    I don't recall seeing recruiting teams on high streets, but at events such as military tattoos or airshows, or military museums, its not uncommon. Those are largely recreational events, so the success rate is always pretty low. Most of us will understand why many young lads bought up on computer games and tv shows will have a natural curiosity about guns, while its a pretty safe bet that someone of military age who wants to point weapons at other people and make gun sounds is probably, like 98% of people who go near an ACO or one of these events, is probably not the sort of person you want in the forces. On the other hand, many young lads have a natural technical curiosity. Someone who asks "how does this work", or "how do you do that", someone whose natural instinct is to try and understand how things work, will not look at a weapon firstly as a method of killing, but as a tool. Like all tools, weapons have to be cared for, and someone who doesn't firstly understand how weapons work will find they get let down by it when they really need it. Sometimes, its easier to see these things when you have something to focus on.
    Addresses my point about gun nuts, so that's good. But I think we all know guns are a tool of the trade in the army for a lot of people who join.

    And to be blunt, the very first thing those with no experience of real weapons notice when they pick one up is how heavy they are. Firing a General purpose machine gun, which is capable of 1000 rounds per minute, is an exhilarating experience the first time you do it. But it weighs about 15 kilos, and that's without any ammunition. Carrying one for 8 miles in the pouring rain is much less enthralling. The look of surprise on someone's face when they pick up even a relatively light modern weapon like an SA80 and realise how heavy it is can tell you an awful lot about someone's character.
    I bet.

    I don't think CND bloke needs to worry all that much. The vast majority of people who go near these kind of events never end up in the Army
    That's not what he's principally worried about. His objection about holding them in poor areas is interesting but moot, but he seems to be more concerned about strategy than outcome.

    You clearly don't agree with him, which is fine. Neither do I, necessarily. But you appear to accept, despite your prejudices against such 'types' that he is not being ludicrous, as the story tried to paint it. I was hoping, given your long experience in the army, that you would be able to give a compelling reason why guns should be present at such a place and time.
    It's amazing how common this narcissism is: I disagree with person A, and I also disagree with person B, therefore A and B are identical - Daniel Hannan

  5. #35
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    Guns should be present to show people what they'd be using.

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