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Thread: Trump to recognise Jerusalem as capital of Israel and move Embassy?

  1. #21
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    Well look in the overview
    US influence in Mid East Hemorrhaging. Russian influence galloping. Chinese One Belt/One Road heading to region and beyond to Africa at full steam.

    ISIS defeated in Syria and Iraq and its fighters now finding their ways to North Africa and now this.

    As I have said before. If you ever wondered what a 21st Century Scorched Earth policy looks like........

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Witchfinder View Post
    What Mr Trump has just done is the equivalent of sending out an invitation to every Islamic extremist group on earth to target the United States and American interests around the world, he has inflamed a long standing simmering dispute and I predict retaliation will follow.

    Yet again the man proves to be an idiot, with absolutely no idea of diplomacy, tact or understanding of the world and history.
    Excellent. The US still fight total war dont answer to the human rights assholes and still hang criminals. Shouldnt take too long to sort this out....
    --
    "The Inland Revenue is not slow, and quite rightly, to take every advantage which is open to it under the Taxing Statutes for the purposes of depleting the taxpayer's pocket. And the taxpayer is in like manner entitled to be astute to prevent, so far as he honestly can, the depletion of his means by the Inland Revenue"

    Lord Clyde: "Ayrshire Pullman Motor Services V Inland Revenue, 1929"

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    Of course there are Palestinians with peaceful intentions.
    But that wasn't the point I was trying to make was it? If you take the whole of that sentence and tackle me on that, it will make more sense.

    More than a million of them live in Israel and love it.
    Yeah, you funny. You'd know just what it's like to be Palestinian in Israel, wouldn't you? See, if you are a Palestine in East Jerusalem, which the Israelis just flew in the face of international law and UN resolutions and just took, you are only an Israeli at the Israelis' pleasure - you don't get full Israeli citizenship, you get a residence card and you can't be a citizen of Jordan either, so you are stateless, without guarantees of all the groovy rights-based protections that Jewish Israelis enjoy. And even if you grew up in East Jerusalem and your family has been there for centuries, you have no automatic right to stay, while any Jew abroad can legally settle there under the right of return. See, I get that you think that is all OK, but to the people that have to live with such obvious injustice, it is anything but. Basically, Israel is balkanised, as surely as South Africa was under apartheid - and that is before we get to the people who are excluded altogether and have to show passes to come 'into Israel' even though they live within its borders.

    I'm sure that if you were told you no longer had the automatic right to live where you were born and raised, you would be just fine with it and say 'yep, mustn't grumble', but not everyone is as willing to live on their knees as you seem to be, and I don't blame them.


    What do you recognise to be the state capital of Israel?
    I believe the capital of Israel was always Tel-Aviv, but I don't care where they have it as long as they don't ride roughshod over history and the wishes of the UN and the international community.

    What has actually changed? Nothing, no borders moved, no one attacked and hurt or killed.
    That has all been done already, in defiance of the UN. This is about a world leader - the only one other than Putin, I believe - recognising it as the Israeli capital despite the fact that it is a highly disputed city and region.

    Of course, the terrorists will use any excuse to attack. It's what they do.
    Right, so let's give them some justification on which to hang their latest attack and recruit more followers, yeah? That your solution? Brilliant. Why don't we do it your way, gather everyone in the world together on, say, the Isle of Wight (it may be a myth, but I heard we'd all fit on) and just have a big old fight and see who survives, eh?

    Luckily, in the real world, most politicians understand why stirring up tensions when you don't need to is a dick move and generally doesn't end well. And besides 'terrorists' - I presume people who fight back against oppression are all terrorists to you, right, including the Jewish Resistance in Nazi Germany? - there are peaceful people who do not want to fight, but may now feel like there are few other options left to them.
    It's amazing how common this narcissism is: I disagree with person A, and I also disagree with person B, therefore A and B are identical - Daniel Hannan

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Witchfinder View Post
    What Mr Trump has just done is the equivalent of sending out an invitation to every Islamic extremist group on earth to target the United States and American interests around the world, he has inflamed a long standing simmering dispute and I predict retaliation will follow.
    Right. So "Islamic extremist groups" needed an invitation to attack the US/The West/Virtually anyone? What have they been doing up to now then? Special fecking requests?

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by uganda View Post
    Yeah, you funny. You'd know just what it's like to be Palestinian in Israel, wouldn't you? See, if you are a Palestine in East Jerusalem, which the Israelis just flew in the face of international law and UN resolutions and just took, you are only an Israeli at the Israelis' pleasure - you don't get full Israeli citizenship, you get a residence card and you can't be a citizen of Jordan either, so you are stateless, without guarantees of all the groovy rights-based protections that Jewish Israelis enjoy. And even if you grew up in East Jerusalem and your family has been there for centuries, you have no automatic right to stay, while any Jew abroad can legally settle there under the right of return. See, I get that you think that is all OK, but to the people that have to live with such obvious injustice, it is anything but. Basically, Israel is balkanised, as surely as South Africa was under apartheid - and that is before we get to the people who are excluded altogether and have to show passes to come 'into Israel' even though they live within its borders.
    I was talking about the many Arabs that live in the part of Israel which is undisputed. They are far happier than the ones under Palestinian control. If you want some evidence for that I can find it. The Galilee is bursting with Arabs.

    I'm sure that if you were told you no longer had the automatic right to live where you were born and raised, you would be just fine with it and say 'yep, mustn't grumble', but not everyone is as willing to live on their knees as you seem to be, and I don't blame them.
    OK, thanks for telling me how sure you are.
    I believe the capital of Israel was always Tel-Aviv, but I don't care where they have it as long as they don't ride roughshod over history and the wishes of the UN and the international community.
    Israel as a soverieign nation can choose to have their capital where they like. They chose Jerusalem. I'm so glad they have your approval.
    That has all been done already, in defiance of the UN. This is about a world leader - the only one other than Putin, I believe - recognising it as the Israeli capital despite the fact that it is a highly disputed city and region.
    Czech republic. Others will follow. It hasn't changed anything other than acknowledging the truth. A bit like saying Taiwan is a separate country, but politically there's a problem.

    Right, so let's give them some justification on which to hang their latest attack and recruit more followers, yeah? That your solution? Brilliant. Why don't we do it your way, gather everyone in the world together on, say, the Isle of Wight (it may be a myth, but I heard we'd all fit on) and just have a big old fight and see who survives, eh?
    What part of they don't need an excuse do you not understand?
    They have been attacking Jews in the area since before WW2.

    Luckily, in the real world, most politicians understand why stirring up tensions when you don't need to is a dick move and generally doesn't end well. And besides 'terrorists' - I presume people who fight back against oppression are all terrorists to you, right, including the Jewish Resistance in Nazi Germany? - there are peaceful people who do not want to fight, but may now feel like there are few other options left to them
    Trump is right to stop appeasing terrorists such as Hamas, the PLO, Islamic Jihad etc.
    He explained his reasoning in his speech and the whole of American politics is behind the decision approximately 10-1.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeppityDawg View Post
    Right. So "Islamic extremist groups" needed an invitation to attack the US/The West/Virtually anyone? What have they been doing up to now then? Special fecking requests?
    No, but more things they can use to justify their barbaric actions make them more likely to carry them out and give them more material with which to recruit vulnerable youths to their cause. There is a reason that diplomacy has always been a thing in politics, by all means blow it out of the water and we can all just massacre each other instead but, snowflake as you undoubtedly think this makes me, I would rather like my daughter to have the peaceful life I have thus far enjoyed.

    Of course, bone-headed intervention in the Middle East gave us Islamic terrorism in the first place, but I won't go into that now, as I think you can only take one challenge to your determination to see the world in black and white at a time, and that is an optimistic estimate.
    It's amazing how common this narcissism is: I disagree with person A, and I also disagree with person B, therefore A and B are identical - Daniel Hannan

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    I was talking about the many Arabs that live in the part of Israel which is undisputed.
    I was talking about the ones in the area specified in the OP.

    They are far happier than the ones under Palestinian control.
    Ah, you mean they are happier where there are home comforts, rather than in an open prison which the Israelis cut off from such comforts as a political strategy? Right. But since Palestinians in Israel are second-class citizens, it still means they are victims of injustice.

    If you want some evidence for that I can find it. The Galilee is bursting with Arabs.
    No thanks. See above for why that is not germane to my point.

    OK, thanks for telling me how sure you are.
    Well, you were pretty sure Palestinians in Israel were happy. Got into the minds of a million of them, no less. I'm just making the point that your logic means you do not value being able to call the place you were born home. But by all means evade that point.

    Israel as a soverieign nation can choose to have their capital where they like. They chose Jerusalem. I'm so glad they have your approval.
    They don't have UN approval. And I'm so glad you believe they are sovereign when propped up to such an enormous extent by the United States. If only you could apply that to other matters of sovereignty. Meanwhile, the moral case against them is pretty strong - they stole the land, and operate an apartheid system, not to mention that they have flown in the face of international law many times to do so.

    Czech republic. Others will follow. It hasn't changed anything other than acknowledging the truth. A bit like saying Taiwan is a separate country, but politically there's a problem.
    Others may follow, but there are very good reasons why they haven't recognised it up to now.


    What part of they don't need an excuse do you not understand?
    I understand it perfectly. Which bit of 'more excuses makes it even easier for them to justify their barbarity and to recruit others to their cause' do you not understand?

    They have been attacking Jews in the area since before WW2.
    All one way is it? Where's your condemnation of attacks by Israel on Palestine? They took their homes off them, and have forced them to live on their knees ever since. How long would you put up with that if you were in their shoes? You have already evaded that point once, so I won't hold my breath.

    Trump is right to stop appeasing terrorists such as Hamas, the PLO, Islamic Jihad etc.
    No-one is asking him to appease them - what sort of nonsensical whataboutery is this? Meanwhile, rather a lot of people are asking him to appease terrorists like Netanyahu.

    He explained his reasoning in his speech and the whole of American politics is behind the decision approximately 10-1.
    America is in favour of Israel???? No!!!!

    Trump is a buffoon and spouts drivel constantly. Not because the media tell me, but because his pronouncements are big, public, proud and asinine, and I understand spoken and written English pretty well.
    It's amazing how common this narcissism is: I disagree with person A, and I also disagree with person B, therefore A and B are identical - Daniel Hannan

  8. #28
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    This will end in tears. Trump is deliberately provoking Hamas. Even he isn't that thick to think there will not be opposition around the region. So what are the real motives? Who has what black on him? Mossad? American Jewry? FSS?

  9. #29
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    I think Trump is motivated by his ego at a very basic level, something like this: "the world is pretty boring, I'm bored with how things are, I want to stir things up a bit so I'm not so bored any more. I like throwing my weight around and upsetting the kind people I don't like, it makes me feel good, it's what I've done all my life and it got me where I am today. I see no reason to change, no reason, no reason at all."
    I dahn do non-judgement'aw. ... and put ya blinkin' shirt on mate, wiwya!

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyperduck Quack Quack View Post
    I think Trump is motivated by his ego at a very basic level, something like this: "the world is pretty boring, I'm bored with how things are, I want to stir things up a bit so I'm not so bored any more. I like throwing my weight around and upsetting the kind people I don't like, it makes me feel good, it's what I've done all my life and it got me where I am today. I see no reason to change, no reason, no reason at all."

    In other words he's a bloody loony.

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