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Thread: What is Liberalism?

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by T00ts View Post
    We keep referring to it, but what do we understand by it, and just what is a Liberal Elite? I don't see how current politics is Liberal. Am I missing something?
    On a personal level I would say that it is about giving the other fellow some elbow room and not making a fuss about every minor upset. It is the basic creed of most conservatives, regardless of their political affiliations.

    On a political level, I would consider it the ability to follow all the fashionable causes, provided they did not cause any personal inconvenience.

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  3. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by BryanLuc View Post
    Think you are confusing liberalism and socialism
    . Then along came the 60s, and that was real liberalism
    Am I associating modern liberalism with socialism ? Yes I am ,unlike the liberalism of the past that enforced the will of the individual modern liberalism enforces the will of the state which takes it close to or even into the same arena as socialism .

    The 60's was more Libertarianism than real liberalism

  4. #13
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    Separate substance from language. It's the words that have shifted, not the ideologies. Like many changes in English, it's moved from west to east across the Atlantic, and British people are now following Americans in using the word 'liberal' to do many of the things that the word 'socialist' did in the past. We're then obliged to shift the word 'libertarian' onto the ground previously occupied by the word 'liberal'.

    The substance of liberalism, socialism, libertarianism etc is slippery enough in its own right, of course - that's why so many political debates, discussions and disagreements are at cross purposes (on this forum as much as anywhere else).

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  6. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by P. de Bierkabouter View Post
    Separate substance from language. It's the words that have shifted, not the ideologies. Like many changes in English, it's moved from west to east across the Atlantic, and British people are now following Americans in using the word 'liberal' to do many of the things that the word 'socialist' did in the past. We're then obliged to shift the word 'libertarian' onto the ground previously occupied by the word 'liberal'.

    The substance of liberalism, socialism, libertarianism etc is slippery enough in its own right, of course - that's why so many political debates, discussions and disagreements are at cross purposes (on this forum as much as anywhere else).
    Perhaps this 'slippage' is actually creating confusion.
    You've only failed when you've stopped trying! xx

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    Quote Originally Posted by T00ts View Post
    Perhaps this 'slippage' is actually creating confusion.
    It very obviously creates confusion - otherwise this thread wouldn't exist. We need to be aware of labels and of all the things that people might mean by them, but (a much harder job) we should beware of actually thinking in labels.

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  9. #16
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    I'm not sure what it means any more

    When i was a young man it seemed to put itself somewhere between the socialism of the Marxist left and the capitalism red in tooth and claw practised by Thatcher

    yet the party which was the only one to stand up for leasehold reform stood for the destruction of the married man's income tax relief, the imposition of punitive debt upon those most needed to drive the technological revolution, the flooding of society with millions of illiterate immigrants on the basis they have a "right" to **** on this country's economy, and the placement of the gay, the lesbian,bthe black, the Asian and those who mutilate their genitalia from what they were handed all in front of the white, middle aged, middle income grandparents married for decades and the only people on society who have the sexual inclination to propagate it ....
    --
    "The Inland Revenue is not slow, and quite rightly, to take every advantage which is open to it under the Taxing Statutes for the purposes of depleting the taxpayer's pocket. And the taxpayer is in like manner entitled to be astute to prevent, so far as he honestly can, the depletion of his means by the Inland Revenue"

    Lord Clyde: "Ayrshire Pullman Motor Services V Inland Revenue, 1929"

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    These days right use 'liberal' as a derogatory term for people on the soft left who take their belief in tolerance and freedom of expression too far. But merely by using 'liberal' in this way, the right are, at the same time, self-defining themselves as intolerant and against freedom of expression.

    Right-wing people prefer to use the term 'libertarian' to describe their values. To me a libertarian is someone who believes they should have the right to do what they like AND the right to stop other people from doing things they don't like.
    I dahn do non-judgement'aw. ... and put ya blinkin' shirt on mate, wiwya!

  11. #18
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    Everyone wants that right. Even me.

    As long as you are dealing with liberal people, me having that right and you having the exact same right, shouldn't come into any conflict.

    There are lots of rights I have that I simply do not make use of. Most I have no need and some I do not want.

    The right to be a dickhead, doesn't mean it's a good thing to be a dickhead or even socially acceptable to be a dickhead. It just means we're not going to punish you for it. That it rates too low on the dickhead scale of dickish things to do.

    So I see it as this. Everyone has the right to do whatever they like and they also have the power to stop others and others have the power to stop them.
    But if you do ever try and stop another, be willing to fight. Because the level of respect for them that you are showing in this, is that of a man to an animal. Good dog, sit.
    And animals resolve things differently.

    So if the stakes are at least that high, people will avoid doing it as much as they can. A lesson learnt with siblings and in the playground.
    And that is what I think it is to be liberal. To give each person around you the maximum possible respect at all times lest they lump you one.
    And if necessary be ready to lump them one right back.

    Use good manners to protect yourself, apologise so very Britishly. Did you just step on my toes? I'm so sorry about that. I do apologise. I didn't mean to be standing under you.
    Can I buy you a drink by way of apology?

    What need have I of rights amongst such highly civilised men.


    My social philosophy is this. Don't be a **** giver or a **** taker. Give no ****, take no ****.

  12. #19
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    Simple answer:

    Liberalism is the cause, nationalism is the solution. We live in a diseased society, it's time is almost up. But what is needed is coming, maybe not in my lifetime. But my input will be remembered.

  13. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyperduck Quack Quack View Post
    These days right use 'liberal' as a derogatory term for people on the soft left who take their belief in tolerance and freedom of expression too far. But merely by using 'liberal' in this way, the right are, at the same time, self-defining themselves as intolerant and against freedom of expression.

    Right-wing people prefer to use the term 'libertarian' to describe their values. To me a libertarian is someone who believes they should have the right to do what they like AND the right to stop other people from doing things they don't like.
    well the most hardcore libertarian i ever met merely wanted the right to make his own mistakes.

    he was convinced for example that everything we are currently taxed for could be done by consent and payment.

    i have to say i felt he had a point.
    --
    "The Inland Revenue is not slow, and quite rightly, to take every advantage which is open to it under the Taxing Statutes for the purposes of depleting the taxpayer's pocket. And the taxpayer is in like manner entitled to be astute to prevent, so far as he honestly can, the depletion of his means by the Inland Revenue"

    Lord Clyde: "Ayrshire Pullman Motor Services V Inland Revenue, 1929"

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