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Thread: We need a fairer voting system, but how?

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by lankou View Post
    That assumes that people would vote for the same party if there were proportional representation. Personally I doubt it.
    Well look at Germany.

    The CDU gained 32% of the votes in FPTP and 173 seats and 27.3% in PR
    The SPD gained 27.9% of the votes in FPTP 64 seats and 23% in PR
    The FDP gained 9.4% of the votes in FPTP and gained zero seats, and 14.6% in PR and gained 93 seats
    The Left gained 11.1% of the votes in FPTP and 16 seats, and 11.9% of the vote in PR
    The Alliance/Greens gained 9.2% of the votes in FPTP and 1 seat, and 10.7% of the vote in PR

    Clearly there's different thought. When the CSU gained 300,000 votes, the CDU gained 2 million votes and the SPD gained 2.1 million votes in FPTP negative voting compared to PR positive voting. That's 4.4 million voters who chose the main two parties in FPTP but not in PR. That's 10% of the people who are basically being disenfranchises with FPTP. (But not because German has duel votes, but in the UK that might be the equivalent)

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sheepy View Post
    One cannot rush these things,why rush when we can take our time and stroll over.
    Rush?
    We've had telephones for my entire lifetime.

    I think far from rushing it, those in power will do everything possible to deny this to us. They must be forced or it will never ever happen.
    Since it can be adopted tomorrow, it should be. I agree no need to rush it, no need to start it tonight. Tomorrow will be timely enough.

    So, it must be rushed, because the anti-politics agenda is in ascendance. Now is the time. If we wait the opportunity may be lost.
    What they want is for it to all go quiet and all their misrepresentation to be forgotten. So that they may continue to do so indefinitely.
    Nuh uh.

    Get on with it. I offer you zero political authority over me until you do. So, no rush, unless you wish to have a legitimate system of government. For that... many are in a rush.


    Is rushing it going to make the country more or less stable? More or less governable?
    I think we are at the tipping point. That we are close to some kind of peoples revolution. The risks of doing nothing now, outweigh the risks of addressing the problem.

    Legitimacy has been lost for a long time now. Hence all the referenda.
    It's done and the process of directly representing ourselves has organically become established.
    We won't be starting from scratch tomorrow. We have almost completed the transformation already. It is happening.
    All that is required is for us to publicly acknowledge the new paradigm.

  3. #13
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    There have been perversions of democracy throughout its history, the most notorious example being the democratic election of Adolf Hitler as Chancellor of Germany in 1933.

    More recent examples include:
    Nick Clegg effectively using all the Lib Dem votes cast in the 2010 general election as one block vote to support a Tory government.
    Possibly - lots of Tory supporters joined the Labour Party to vote for the 'unelectable' Jeremy Corbyn in the leadership contest
    The current government using a marginal majority vote a non-binding referendum, after a campaign of lies, as grounds for Britain leaving the EU.
    A new marine research vessel being named the 'Sir David Attenborough' despite the name 'Boaty McBoatface' receiving the most votes!
    Donald Trump becoming president in the USA despite many more people voting for Hillary Clinton.
    I dahn do non-judgement'aw. ... and put ya blinkin' shirt on mate, wiwya!

  4. #14
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    Hitler was wildly popular.
    Half of Europe loved his arse.

    He was the democratically elected leader. He didn't have to rig the vote. Half of Europe loved him. Half of them. Not just the Germans. Half of Europe. He was wildly popular.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baff View Post
    Hitler was wildly popular.
    Half of Europe loved his arse.

    He was the democratically elected leader. He didn't have to rig the vote. Half of Europe loved him. Half of them. Not just the Germans. Half of Europe. He was wildly popular.
    That's the problem - he was popular at the time, but look how things turned out - mass murder on an industrial scale.

    That's the lesson for today. Democratic decisions can lead to disaster. That's not to say that democracy is a bad thing but it needs have built-in safeguards to prevent 'mob rule by the ballot box' as we're seeing now with the rise in neo-reactionary populism that's put Trump in the White House and will soon take away our rights as EU citizens.
    I dahn do non-judgement'aw. ... and put ya blinkin' shirt on mate, wiwya!

  6. #16
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    So there needs to be safeguards just in case the majority get sick of liberalism and elect a strong, free thinking, businessman?

    Or to stop the majority telling the communist dinosaurs in Brussels to eff off?

    Nah, we need PR for general elections, so that a party with something like 5 million votes doesn't end up with just one seat. At the same time as another party gets less votes but wins nearly all the seats in one part of the nation.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by TWNUK View Post
    So there needs to be safeguards just in case the majority get sick of liberalism and elect a strong, free thinking, businessman?

    Or to stop the majority telling the communist dinosaurs in Brussels to eff off?

    Nah, we need PR for general elections, so that a party with something like 5 million votes doesn't end up with just one seat. At the same time as another party gets less votes but wins nearly all the seats in one part of the nation.
    So you're contradicting yourself! In America the 'strong' businessman becomes president despite getting fewer votes than his rival.
    But you complain about 'a party' which I assume is UKIP, only having one MP at Westminster and we'd be better off with PR.

    What you seem to want is to change the voting system when the populist neo-reactionary right lose out but not when the liberal left lose out.

    The fact that you describe the EU as 'communist dinosaurs' shows where you're coming from and actually you're making rather a fool of yourself!
    I dahn do non-judgement'aw. ... and put ya blinkin' shirt on mate, wiwya!

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyperduck Quack Quack View Post
    That's the problem - he was popular at the time, but look how things turned out - mass murder on an industrial scale.

    That's the lesson for today. Democratic decisions can lead to disaster. That's not to say that democracy is a bad thing but it needs have built-in safeguards to prevent 'mob rule by the ballot box' as we're seeing now with the rise in neo-reactionary populism that's put Trump in the White House and will soon take away our rights as EU citizens.
    Frankly I can't take you seriously if you equate Trump to Hitler. Sorry.

    Nor does Trump have any say in the UK's EU membership. That was settled by the people of this country alone.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyperduck Quack Quack View Post
    So you're contradicting yourself! In America the 'strong' businessman becomes president despite getting fewer votes than his rival.
    But you complain about 'a party' which I assume is UKIP, only having one MP at Westminster and we'd be better off with PR.

    What you seem to want is to change the voting system when the populist neo-reactionary right lose out but not when the liberal left lose out.

    The fact that you describe the EU as 'communist dinosaurs' shows where you're coming from and actually you're making rather a fool of yourself!
    The voting system in the US is nothing like ours, and while I don't see Donald Trump as being the answer to all their problems, he is certainly the best of a very bad bunch. That he won the Electoral College Vote in more states than the mad witch is why he is president. But is that more like FPTP or PR or just the Americans doing things their own way?

    I'm not a great fan of UKIP either, but 5 million votes and one seat means that many people felt as if their votes meant sweet fa. I would even go as far as to suggest that the BREXIT vote, in some part, was a backlash at what happened in the general election, a reason why so many people believe that they had been ignored by politicians for too long.

    Then we have the EU, yes I know they have some elected members, and the means in which they were elected was PR. But that doesn't mean that it is not still the highly paid retirement home for failed politicians, or former leaders who had lost the support of their party and/or their country.

    It is predominantly left wing, and it imposes its own laws on member nations. In many ways it is the Western equivalent of the Soviet Union, hence why some refer to it as the EUSSR.

    The fact that Phony Tony is now calling for a second referendum, (which he will not get), speaks volumes about the caliber of pond life that are still trying to overturn the referendum.

    I would like to think that BREXIT is the beginning of the end for the EU, with Italy, Greece, and France all leaving in the not too distant future. Perhaps President Trump will overhaul the entire corrupt system in the US, stop the globalist gravy train, and put his own people first.

    The first steps have been taken, now let's see the entire internationalist **** fest unravel, for good.

  10. #20
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    Online/telephone voting would be open to abuse/hacking by Foreign Governments and perhaps are own Intelligence Agency.

    I suspect Labour will adopt PR, as a policy, after they are drubbed at the next election. However, it'll take them a generation to rebuild any trust. So we're pretty much ****ed.

    If we were to adopt PR i'd go along with the Jenkings Report.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/203948.stm
    Ever get the feeling you've been cheated?

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