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Thread: NHS wastage continues!

  1. #1
    Major Sinic Guest

    NHS wastage continues!

    Let me make it quite clear that I consider the NHS one of our finest institutions and I support its principle completely.

    That said considerable waste is rife within it, and must be rooted out and the incompetents responsible for such waste should forfeit their jobs. They are afterall wasting taxpayers hard earned money, and depriving the NHS of productive expenditure where it would be better spent.

    The latest example of wanton waste has occurred at The Bronglais Hospital in Aberystwyth. The Health Board has demolished a 223 space car park, and rebuilt it with a 227 space car park at a cost of 2.6 million pounds or £655,000 pounds per additional space. The local Health Board has attempted to justify the expenditure by suggesting that the cost included some demolition work, access to the new car park and rerouting of services. Well it would wouldn't it! A private company would soon go bust with such profligacy, but the seeming unaccountable NHS management can just carry on wasting resources.

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    Re: NHS wastage continues!

    Privatisation
    The only thing that saves us from the bureaucracy is its inefficiency
    ~ Eugene McCarthy

  3. #3
    Major Sinic Guest

    Re: NHS wastage continues!

    Quote Originally Posted by LA View Post
    Privatisation
    Now how did I know you were going to say that!

    I believe the NHS must remain in public ownership and control. Certainly there is room for the private sector to play a role, a major role, but under public control. The right people need to be recruited to improve the efficiency and reduce the waste but with public responsibility. NHS managers must be made to deliver results or lose their jobs, just as they would have to in the private sector. Speak to any nurse, doctor or medical technician and they will tell you horror stories about the rampant waste. It is to management we must look.

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    Re: NHS wastage continues!

    The wastage in the NHS is criminal,but they dont have the monopoly on wasting taxpayers money.As a private subcontractor any government contract is, though loaded with red tape a "good earner".

  5. #5
    Major Sinic Guest

    Re: NHS wastage continues!

    Quote Originally Posted by Streetwalker View Post
    The wastage in the NHS is criminal,but they dont have the monopoly on wasting taxpayers money.As a private subcontractor any government contract is, though loaded with red tape a "good earner".
    You are so right, and largely down to the generally poor quality of both their procurement procedures and procurement personnel compared with the private sector.

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    Re: NHS wastage continues!

    Quote Originally Posted by Major Sinic View Post
    Now how did I know you were going to say that!

    I believe the NHS must remain in public ownership and control. Certainly there is room for the private sector to play a role, a major role, but under public control. The right people need to be recruited to improve the efficiency and reduce the waste but with public responsibility. NHS managers must be made to deliver results or lose their jobs, just as they would have to in the private sector. Speak to any nurse, doctor or medical technician and they will tell you horror stories about the rampant waste. It is to management we must look.
    Such a wet

    But that aside my Tory chum, How would you propose we remove the waste, reduce the cost and increase the results?
    The only thing that saves us from the bureaucracy is its inefficiency
    ~ Eugene McCarthy

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    Re: NHS wastage continues!

    Quote Originally Posted by LA View Post
    Such a wet

    But that aside my Tory chum, How would you propose we remove the waste, reduce the cost and increase the results?
    In exactly the same way that any privately run business does it; by actively looking all all parts of the administration to make the organisation more efficient and effective. However as long as the "it's state run so the taxpayer will pay" attitude persists in the senior management, little will change.

    On a slightly different, but allied, topic, last week I was talking to a friend who's a Consultant in the private medical sector, although he still does between one and two days a week with the NHS, and he was telling me about the way that recruitment in the NHS still often works, where he said that there seems to be an unwritten policy of employing three mediocre people, two of whom are usually black, Asian or from some other minority due to political correctness, where the job really only needs one well paid and highly motivated person. OK, I'm sure there's a degree of exaggeration there - and certainly irony given that he's Indian - but ask anyone responsible who works in the NHS and they'll be able to give you whole lists of areas of inefficiency, plus the same story that the top heavy management structure, too often politically appointed, just don't seem to listen.
    Socialism in general has a record of failure so blatant only an intellectual could ignore it - Thomas Sowell

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    Re: NHS wastage continues!

    Quote Originally Posted by Midas View Post
    In exactly the same way that any privately run business does it; by actively looking all all parts of the administration to make the organisation more efficient and effective. However as long as the "it's state run so the taxpayer will pay" attitude persists in the senior management, little will change.
    So long as government has control, the National Health Service shall remain a problem. There are only two policies I will support.

    1/ Privatisation of health services.
    2/ Creating a public owned private sector corporation so that government has no influence. Ensure, like the BBC, or Deutsche Bahn in Germany, that the government hasn't direct influence.


    On a slightly different, but allied, topic, last week I was talking to a friend who's a Consultant in the private medical sector, although he still does between one and two days a week with the NHS, and he was telling me about the way that recruitment in the NHS still often works, where he said that there seems to be an unwritten policy of employing three mediocre people, two of whom are usually black, Asian or from some other minority due to political correctness, where the job really only needs one well paid and highly motivated person. OK, I'm sure there's a degree of exaggeration there - and certainly irony given that he's Indian - but ask anyone responsible who works in the NHS and they'll be able to give you whole lists of areas of inefficiency, plus the same story that the top heavy management structure, too often politically appointed, just don't seem to listen.
    There is a wider point here - quotas for females/ethnic candidates. The idea that you force any business, state/public/private take on a number of certain candidates is a disgrace and causes problems.
    The only thing that saves us from the bureaucracy is its inefficiency
    ~ Eugene McCarthy

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    Re: NHS wastage continues!

    Sorry to bump this ancient thread but the story I am about to tell doesn't merit its own thread but it does have something to do with the subject of this thread.

    I was once a nurse myself (started training in 1990, qualified in 1993). Everything has changed in the NHS these days but I do believe that I was around when the changes started to occur. The hospital I trained at was in Bangor, North Wales (Ysbyty Gwynedd) and it was a little behind England in that several English hospitals had changed to "Trust Status" but YG became a trust at some point during my training.

    At this stage, I was in my early 20s, not politically very aware and had no idea what "Trust Status" meant - I still don't, to be honest. However, it did seem to mean that the running of the hospitals were taken over by people from a more "business oriented background" - apparently.

    As I say, it has changed a lot these days but in those days, a nurses payscale was something like this (making these figures up here but they are roughly right) also, bear in mind this was 20 years ago:-

    D Grade - c £13k basic - Newly qualified Staff Nurse.
    E Grade - c £15k basic - Generally a more experienced Staff Nurse - took perhaps 1-2 years to become E Grade.
    F Grade - c £19k basic - Deputy Sister - took maybe 5 years to get to this level.
    G Grade - c £25k basic - Ward Sister - responsible for the overall running of the ward - took perhaps 10 years to get to this level - as a rule, Ward Sisters were older, vastly experienced nurses.
    H Grade - c £27k basic - Nursing Officer - overall responsibility for a "Unit" (i.e. several Ward Sisters reported to this person)

    Now, I was working on a ward with a young man called Dafydd. He was an E Grade staff nurse. He applied for a new job which had just come up. One day, we were sitting in the canteen and he came in with the biggest smile you have ever seen. "I got the job!", he said, "H Grade!"

    We were all students at the time and were sitting there open-mouthed. "Wow! What's the job?". "Well, they are going to start doing Bed Occupancy and Dependency Studies to see how full the wards are, how many beds are empty, how many highly dependent patients you have. Nurses will have to fill in a form every shift and then send them to me and then I input it all into the computer."

    Something struck me as not quite right about all this but it was to be a few years before I realised the extent of it all.

    Basically, they had taken a perfectly good nurse off a ward, given him a very well paid, top grade job (beyond that even of a ward sister) yet it was hardly a job which required a qualified nurse to undertake.

    The job he was doing was basically to see if so many nurses were required on the wards. If the beds weren't always full and the beds that were full were occupied by low-dependency patients then nurses jobs could be cut.

    Now, I am capitalist through and through and so you might think that I applaud this kind of measure but I didn't and don't because, whilst nurses may have been taken off the ward, the jobs done by the likes of Dafydd appear to have grown beyond all proportion.

    I believed and still believe that these "business-people" were basically taking the piss out of the Government and the taxpayer. They were doing all these "efficiency studies" and suggesting areas for improvement but all the time, creating these ridiculously salaried jobs whilst removing the bread and butter of the NHS - the key staff on the ground level who actually carry out the real care. If this was a real business and not funded by the taxpayer, I suspect much of this profligacy would be eliminated - it would have to or it would have gone bust years ago. As it stands, they seem to be able to reel out some fancy stats, make a few suggestions backed up by very impressive-looking presentations and the money gets poured in.

    This is why I always take these reports of "Thousands of nurses to be axed!!!" with a huge pinch of salt these days. There are an awful lot of "nurses" in the NHS doing jobs which do not require a nursing qualification. Some of them are little more than data entry clerical workers on exorbitant salaries.

    Here's something to ponder... when the NHS was launched in 1948, it had a budget of £437million (roughly £9bn in 2008/09). In 2008/09, it had a budget of over £100bn. I appreciate that methods have improved and techniques have become more advanced, not to mention the fact that the population has increased from around 48m to the current estimated 61m but a ten-fold increase in the NHS budget to cater for this? In many ways, modern techniques have reduced hospital stay times and so this should see a reduction in some areas to counter some of the expense in other areas.

    In short, the NHS has become a bloated, beaurocratic, money-sink that wastes billions every year. It is run for the people who work within it as much as for the benefit of those who need to use it. IMO.
    No man can have a right to impose an unchosen obligation, an unrewarded duty or an involuntary servitude on another man. There can be no such thing as “the right to enslave.” - Ayn Rand

  10. #10
    srb7677 Guest

    Re: NHS wastage continues!

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
    Sorry to bump this ancient thread but the story I am about to tell doesn't merit its own thread but it does have something to do with the subject of this thread.

    I was once a nurse myself (started training in 1990, qualified in 1993). Everything has changed in the NHS these days but I do believe that I was around when the changes started to occur. The hospital I trained at was in Bangor, North Wales (Ysbyty Gwynedd) and it was a little behind England in that several English hospitals had changed to "Trust Status" but YG became a trust at some point during my training.

    At this stage, I was in my early 20s, not politically very aware and had no idea what "Trust Status" meant - I still don't, to be honest. However, it did seem to mean that the running of the hospitals were taken over by people from a more "business oriented background" - apparently.

    As I say, it has changed a lot these days but in those days, a nurses payscale was something like this (making these figures up here but they are roughly right) also, bear in mind this was 20 years ago:-

    D Grade - c £13k basic - Newly qualified Staff Nurse.
    E Grade - c £15k basic - Generally a more experienced Staff Nurse - took perhaps 1-2 years to become E Grade.
    F Grade - c £19k basic - Deputy Sister - took maybe 5 years to get to this level.
    G Grade - c £25k basic - Ward Sister - responsible for the overall running of the ward - took perhaps 10 years to get to this level - as a rule, Ward Sisters were older, vastly experienced nurses.
    H Grade - c £27k basic - Nursing Officer - overall responsibility for a "Unit" (i.e. several Ward Sisters reported to this person)

    Now, I was working on a ward with a young man called Dafydd. He was an E Grade staff nurse. He applied for a new job which had just come up. One day, we were sitting in the canteen and he came in with the biggest smile you have ever seen. "I got the job!", he said, "H Grade!"

    We were all students at the time and were sitting there open-mouthed. "Wow! What's the job?". "Well, they are going to start doing Bed Occupancy and Dependency Studies to see how full the wards are, how many beds are empty, how many highly dependent patients you have. Nurses will have to fill in a form every shift and then send them to me and then I input it all into the computer."

    Something struck me as not quite right about all this but it was to be a few years before I realised the extent of it all.

    Basically, they had taken a perfectly good nurse off a ward, given him a very well paid, top grade job (beyond that even of a ward sister) yet it was hardly a job which required a qualified nurse to undertake.

    The job he was doing was basically to see if so many nurses were required on the wards. If the beds weren't always full and the beds that were full were occupied by low-dependency patients then nurses jobs could be cut.

    Now, I am capitalist through and through and so you might think that I applaud this kind of measure but I didn't and don't because, whilst nurses may have been taken off the ward, the jobs done by the likes of Dafydd appear to have grown beyond all proportion.

    I believed and still believe that these "business-people" were basically taking the piss out of the Government and the taxpayer. They were doing all these "efficiency studies" and suggesting areas for improvement but all the time, creating these ridiculously salaried jobs whilst removing the bread and butter of the NHS - the key staff on the ground level who actually carry out the real care. If this was a real business and not funded by the taxpayer, I suspect much of this profligacy would be eliminated - it would have to or it would have gone bust years ago. As it stands, they seem to be able to reel out some fancy stats, make a few suggestions backed up by very impressive-looking presentations and the money gets poured in.

    This is why I always take these reports of "Thousands of nurses to be axed!!!" with a huge pinch of salt these days. There are an awful lot of "nurses" in the NHS doing jobs which do not require a nursing qualification. Some of them are little more than data entry clerical workers on exorbitant salaries.

    Here's something to ponder... when the NHS was launched in 1948, it had a budget of £437million (roughly £9bn in 2008/09). In 2008/09, it had a budget of over £100bn. I appreciate that methods have improved and techniques have become more advanced, not to mention the fact that the population has increased from around 48m to the current estimated 61m but a ten-fold increase in the NHS budget to cater for this? In many ways, modern techniques have reduced hospital stay times and so this should see a reduction in some areas to counter some of the expense in other areas.

    In short, the NHS has become a bloated, beaurocratic, money-sink that wastes billions every year. It is run for the people who work within it as much as for the benefit of those who need to use it. IMO.
    In a rare moment of agreement between us I do actually agree with the main thrust of most of what you`ve said. The NHS has more managers than it has beds and I have found myself wondering what it is that they all do! Standing around recording "data" to feed into a computer is the sort of useless activity I have long suspected. The trouble is, if financial situations necessitate staffing cuts, it is the managers who decide where the axe should fall, and of course they choose to regard all their own well paid jobs as essential. It is always the less well paid people who are nevertheless doing the jobs that REALLY matter who always seem to be found surplus to requirements, whilst the gravy train for NHS managers keeps rolling along.

    I would like to see the government mandate significant staffing cuts, whilst specifying that none of these be among ward nurses and doctors. They should exclusively be amongst management posts. Prior to this, I would like the government to go through the NHS employment rolls to determine which jobs are actually managerial. Otherwise, some managerial jobs will be deemed as "nursing" jobs in order to shield them from the cuts.

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