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Thread: Freedom of religion

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    Freedom of religion

    I just came up with a new theory, tell me what you think: By allowing all religions to exist on an equal footing, no matter how wacky, violent or offensive to others, the government in which those religions are allowed to co-exist, is putting itself in the official position of saying that there is no such thing as a single moral or ethical truth.

    Let the games begin

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    Re: Freedom of religion

    I'd say that sounds about right. Does that not, by extension, lead the country to a humanistic form of religion in which higher powers mean little to nothing? Does it not also pave the way toward a one-world religion?

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    Re: Freedom of religion

    Many religious people in the west like to point out that their respective constitutions guarantee freedom OF religion. What they never say is that in most constitutions there is also a guarantee of freedom FROM religion, by defining a seperation between church and matters of state. Unfortunately, most notabaly in the US, the wall between church and state has been all but demolished. UK politics looked as if were going to follow suit during the last decade, with the retoric of Blair and Brown. Luckily Cameron seems to have kept God out of his public policies and statements.

    If one scrutinizes monotheistic religion closely, its clear there is NO moral or ethical truth in any of it.
    "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours ." Steven Roberts

    The likelyhood of you being observed is directly proportionate to the stupidity of your actions.

    Barack Hussein Obama, the president that got Bin Laden!

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    Re: Freedom of religion

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveUK View Post
    Many religious people in the west like to point out that their respective constitutions guarantee freedom OF religion. What they never say is that in most constitutions there is also a guarantee of freedom FROM religion, by defining a seperation between church and matters of state. Unfortunately, most notabaly in the US, the wall between church and state has been all but demolished. UK politics looked as if were going to follow suit during the last decade, with the retoric of Blair and Brown. Luckily Cameron seems to have kept God out of his public policies and statements.

    If one scrutinizes monotheistic religion closely, its clear there is NO moral or ethical truth in any of it.
    There is no such thing in the US Constitution with regards to freedom FROM religion. The only thing, which is a good thing, is that the state canít impose a state religion. We learned that lesson from your Brits, by the way, with your silly little Church of England.

    What the filthy atheists want, and I am sure you are one of them, is to not allow the free expression of religion by the community, which is one of the cornerstones of democracy.

    Fort instance, my little town puts up Christmas decorations each year and the County Courthouse has the Ten Commandants posted, all paid for with taxpayerís money. If you donít like it you can kiss our Cracker asses and move someplace else. You have no guarantee that you wonít be exposed to taxpayer funded things that you donít like. If you donít like them then your remedy is to move elsewhere or change the elected officials that authorize the expenditures. Sorry little atheist but sometimes democracy can be a bitch, canít it?

    If you, as a filthy little God hating minority, can take away my communityís right of the free expression of religion then shouldnít we also be allowed to take away some of your free expressions? I bet I would have a quite a long list knowing what a jackass you are from the stupid things you post on this forum. You probably wouldnít like it, would you?

    What you really want is to prevent other people from their free expression while maintaining yours, correct?

    You can try that crap over there all you want but we do have a guarantee of freedom of religion in our Constitution so you donít get a say in it. This country was founded on freedom of religion. You Brits tried to take it away along with a lot of other freedoms once and we kicked your ass because of it so you donít get a say so in it. I will continue to vote for city and county representatives that have the same tolerance and appreciation for religion and love of God that I do. If you donít like it then tough ****.
    Libtards hate freedom unless it is the freedom to kill a child on demand for the sake of convenience. Otherwise they want the government to control every aspect of our lives.

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    Re: Freedom of religion

    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    There is no such thing in the US Constitution with regards to freedom FROM religion. The only thing, which is a good thing, is that the state canít impose a state religion. We learned that lesson from your Brits, by the way, with your silly little Church of England.

    What the filthy atheists want, and I am sure you are one of them, is to not allow the free expression of religion by the community, which is one of the cornerstones of democracy.

    Fort instance, my little town puts up Christmas decorations each year and the County Courthouse has the Ten Commandants posted, all paid for with taxpayerís money. If you donít like it you can kiss our Cracker asses and move someplace else. You have no guarantee that you wonít be exposed to taxpayer funded things that you donít like. If you donít like them then your remedy is to move elsewhere or change the elected officials that authorize the expenditures. Sorry little atheist but sometimes democracy can be a bitch, canít it?

    If you, as a filthy little God hating minority, can take away my communityís right of the free expression of religion then shouldnít we also be allowed to take away some of your free expressions? I bet I would have a quite a long list knowing what a jackass you are from the stupid things you post on this forum. You probably wouldnít like it, would you?

    What you really want is to prevent other people from their free expression while maintaining yours, correct?

    You can try that crap over there all you want but we do have a guarantee of freedom of religion in our Constitution so you donít get a say in it. This country was founded on freedom of religion. You Brits tried to take it away along with a lot of other freedoms once and we kicked your ass because of it so you donít get a say so in it. I will continue to vote for city and county representatives that have the same tolerance and appreciation for religion and love of God that I do. If you donít like it then tough ****.
    You clearly didn't get the point, and don't understand your own countries constitution. The guarantee to people of freedom FROM religon is clearly stated in that there is a clear sparation of state and church. The unelected, unaccountable church does not get to dictate matters of state, pass laws or legislate. This has been clearly demonstrated in your countries courts refusal to allow stupifying religiously motivated creation in the class room.
    It was Thomas Jeffersons "wall of seperation" letter to the crack pot Danbury baptsts that set this in motion. Wasn't Jefferson one of your founding fathers?

    The fact that your little cracker town steals tax payers money to pay for your religion is a matter for them. If you feel so strongly about taxing people to pay for your religion, how about the church starts paying some taxes and publishing it's accounts like every other citizen and corperation in the US?

    Back to the point of the thread, I've still yet to hear one single preachment unique to the Bible that is either ethical or moral. I'll bet my salary you can't come up with one.
    "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours ." Steven Roberts

    The likelyhood of you being observed is directly proportionate to the stupidity of your actions.

    Barack Hussein Obama, the president that got Bin Laden!

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    Re: Freedom of religion

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveUK View Post
    You clearly didn't get the point, and don't understand your own countries constitution. The guarantee to people of freedom FROM religon is clearly stated in that there is a clear sparation of state and church. The unelected, unaccountable church does not get to dictate matters of state, pass laws or legislate. This has been clearly demonstrated in your countries courts refusal to allow stupifying religiously motivated creation in the class room.
    It was Thomas Jeffersons "wall of seperation" letter to the crack pot Danbury baptsts that set this in motion. Wasn't Jefferson one of your founding fathers?

    The fact that your little cracker town steals tax payers money to pay for your religion is a matter for them. If you feel so strongly about taxing people to pay for your religion, how about the church starts paying some taxes and publishing it's accounts like every other citizen and corperation in the US?

    Back to the point of the thread, I've still yet to hear one single preachment unique to the Bible that is either ethical or moral. I'll bet my salary you can't come up with one.
    I got the point all right but you just didn't like it being shoved up your ass.

    I lived in a mostly Mormon community for seven years while working in Washington State. The Mormons ran the place and almost every elected official was Mormon. The community standards reflected the values of the Mormon Church. The elected leaders spent taxpayerís money on religious things.

    Unlike you I am not offended or threatened by other peopleís religious views or the fact the community standards reflect those views. It didnít bother me at all. If I didnít like it I could always move elsewhere. Although the community used some of my tax money for their religion none of my Constitutional rights were really violated. I am tolerant of religious views that are different from my own.

    What I am talking about is called freedom and you probably donít have a clue what I am talking about.
    Libtards hate freedom unless it is the freedom to kill a child on demand for the sake of convenience. Otherwise they want the government to control every aspect of our lives.

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    Re: Freedom of religion

    Quote Originally Posted by Soneone View Post
    I just came up with a new theory, tell me what you think: By allowing all religions to exist on an equal footing, no matter how wacky, violent or offensive to others, the government in which those religions are allowed to co-exist, is putting itself in the official position of saying that there is no such thing as a single moral or ethical truth.

    Let the games begin
    If I understand you correctly you are postulating that by permitting a multitude of religions some of which may have bizarre ethics such as stoning people to death and not permitting condoms to be used etc, the Government in question is stating that there is no single ethical or moral truth?

    If correct then although I dislike organised religion and would liken it to a virus of sorts I would have to disagree, as long as the law of the land overrides religious decree then the Government is not stating that. There has to be a balance of freedom of expression that allows people to believe in any fairy tale they choose as long as it doesnt harm anyone else, and there we get into indocrination of children but that is for another thread.
    The richest man is not he who has the most but he who needs the least.

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    Re: Freedom of religion

    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    I got the point all right but you just didn't like it being shoved up your ass.

    I lived in a mostly Mormon community for seven years while working in Washington State. The Mormons ran the place and almost every elected official was Mormon. The community standards reflected the values of the Mormon Church. The elected leaders spent taxpayerís money on religious things.



    Unlike you I am not offended or threatened by other peopleís religious views or the fact the community standards reflect those views. It didnít bother me at all. If I didnít like it I could always move elsewhere. Although the community used some of my tax money for their religion none of my Constitutional rights were really violated. I am tolerant of religious views that are different from my own.

    What I am talking about is called freedom and you probably donít have a clue what I am talking about.

    Which has abslutely nothing to do with my original point, or your countries constitution.
    I don't care where you lived or under what tax system you had imposed upon you by those Morman crooks.
    It doesn't alter the fact that while your constitution guarrantees freedom OF religion, it also guarrantees freedom FROM religion to those that do not wish to have bronze age theocracy imposed upon them.
    And you are not talking about freedom at all, you are talking about the imposition of theocracy on people who don't want it, people who prefer to be governed by SECULAR democracy, which is the foundation of your constitution and bill of rights.


    Seeing as this thread is about religous ethics and morals, lets talk about the Morman Church shall we, seeing as your brought it up?
    By Morman Church, I presume you mean Joseph Smiths and Brigham Youngs polygamist, child raping, con scam cult dressed up as a religion? The deluded nut job that claimed to have had a revelation from an angel, that gave him golden tablets with the book of Morman written on it. Oh, and then he lost them........sounds a little bit like those stone tablets that Moses had sposedly inscribed by the finger of God, at that time the most precious artifact known to man, and then he smashed them.
    Smith wasn't satisfied with the obvious falacious claims of the Bible, no, he had to stretch the already unbelievably unlikely events of the Bible and stretch it even further. He claimed in his book that Jesus had travelled to the Northern American continent and set up a Jewish nation there. There are stories of wars against indiginous populations etc.
    The Morman Church is not a religion, its a fantasy novel that turned into a polygamist, child raping cult.
    "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours ." Steven Roberts

    The likelyhood of you being observed is directly proportionate to the stupidity of your actions.

    Barack Hussein Obama, the president that got Bin Laden!

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    Re: Freedom of religion

    Quote Originally Posted by ryoden View Post
    If I understand you correctly you are postulating that by permitting a multitude of religions some of which may have bizarre ethics such as stoning people to death and not permitting condoms to be used etc, the Government in question is stating that there is no single ethical or moral truth?

    If correct then although I dislike organised religion and would liken it to a virus of sorts I would have to disagree, as long as the law of the land overrides religious decree then the Government is not stating that. There has to be a balance of freedom of expression that allows people to believe in any fairy tale they choose as long as it doesnt harm anyone else, and there we get into indocrination of children but that is for another thread.
    Good points. What I would conclude of any government that allows multi faith in it's state is that it rejects the claimed moral truths of religion, and instead bases it's constitutions, bill of rights, laws etc on the principles of secular democracy. This is something that the extremists of ALL faiths hate so much. They shout all day long about their constitutional rights to be free to practice their religions, but what they hate is to allow the reverse, which is for people to be free FROM religion if they so choose. This is why they lobby politicians so strongly, why they don't want their churches to be subjct to taxation, why they want to interfear with the education of our children. They can't stand the fact that there are people, the mojority of people in many civilized countries, that do not want their primitive beliefs imposed upon them.


    and there we get into indocrination of children but that is for another thread
    I think this can be discussed within the frame work of this thread. It is after all a matter of morals and ethics and truth what we teach our children.
    The question is, do we impose religion upon impressionable children, tell them that unless they believe it they'll be tortured in hell forever, tell them if they read works of the devil like Harry potter they'll go to hell? Or do we ensure they are educated in secular schools where the subject of religion is treated rightly as part of our history rather than having it indoctrinated into their minds?
    "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours ." Steven Roberts

    The likelyhood of you being observed is directly proportionate to the stupidity of your actions.

    Barack Hussein Obama, the president that got Bin Laden!

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    Re: Freedom of religion

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveUK View Post
    I think this can be discussed within the frame work of this thread. It is after all a matter of morals and ethics and truth what we teach our children.
    The question is, do we impose religion upon impressionable children, tell them that unless they believe it they'll be tortured in hell forever, tell them if they read works of the devil like Harry potter they'll go to hell? Or do we ensure they are educated in secular schools where the subject of religion is treated rightly as part of our history rather than having it indoctrinated into their minds?
    Ok, I mentioned it due to a couple of programmes I watched recently that were studying different religions across the globe and it was actually quite disturbing in places, an example being in the US a guy called Keenan Roberts I think; ran dramas/plays for the Christian followers in his area, the interviewer asked what age limit he would put on children watching it and he said the best age was 12, which surprised me considering it was using fear in a very real way to enforce belief - the plays were anti homosexual/lesbian/abortion and other things that the bible is against and it was done in a rather unpleasant way if children were part of the audience I thought (the abortion scene was really horrific if you were a child I would think).

    Then there were all the religious schools for all the different main faiths so they are split from age 1, it all seemed so very divisive. Children are by nature highly open to suggestion at a young age so if they are indoctrinated at that age it seems unfair, in that they have no real choice.
    One of the UK Christian schools had a very odd science lesson where all the science books had tales from the bible almost on every page being taught alongside science fact, such as Noah's ark, which seemed very strange. In one way I was thinking that adults have the right to educate their children in the ways they want but on the other hand I felt that it was almost like mental abuse in many cases.
    The richest man is not he who has the most but he who needs the least.

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