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Thread: Stephen Hawking: God did not create Universe

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    Stephen Hawking: God did not create Universe

    There is no place for God in theories on the creation of the Universe, Professor Stephen Hawking has said.

    He had previously argued belief in a creator was not incompatible with science but in a new book, he concludes the Big Bang was an inevitable consequence of the laws of physics.
    The Grand Design, part serialised in the Times, says there is no need to invoke God to set the Universe going.
    "Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something," he concluded.

    The great Mr Hawkings has seen the light!




    BBC News - Stephen Hawking: God did not create Universe
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    Re: Stephen Hawking: God did not create Universe

    Was this character Hawkins around at Creation? What the hell does he really know about anything? I read his book "A Brief History of Time" and there were no facts in. Just ramblings and myths and theories. Nothing of any substance.
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    Re: Stephen Hawking: God did not create Universe

    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    there were no facts in. Just ramblings and myths and theories. Nothing of any substance.
    You sure that's not the Bible you are describing?
    I thought you were going to give is a 101 on physics, thermodynamics and entropy to show us how these great physicists have got it all wrong?
    "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours ." Steven Roberts

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    Re: Stephen Hawking: God did not create Universe

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveUK View Post
    You sure that's not the Bible you are describing?
    I thought you were going to give is a 101 on physics, thermodynamics and entropy to show us how these great physicists have got it all wrong?

    Instead of making irrelevant comments tell me something of substance in his book. It is nothing but postulations based upon very little evidence.

    I'll school you in basic physics when I have the proper time to do it. I suspect with your demonstrated level of ignorance on the subject it will take considerable time. I can't do it today because I am just back from the rifle range and I have to clean my weapons. Something else you know nothing about.

    Have you even ever heard of the Law of Entropy? I need that information because I need to know if have to start from scratch explaining to you that you canít make something out of nothing or if I can assume you know that but just donít want to believe it when it comes to the theory of the Big Bang, which that character Hawkins embraces.
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    Re: Stephen Hawking: God did not create Universe

    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    Instead of making irrelevant comments tell me something of substance in his book. It is nothing but postulations based upon very little evidence.

    I'll school you in basic physics when I have the proper time to do it. I suspect with your demonstrated level of ignorance on the subject it will take considerable time. I can't do it today because I am just back from the rifle range and I have to clean my weapons. Something else you know nothing about.

    Have you even ever heard of the Law of Entropy? I need that information because I need to know if have to start from scratch explaining to you that you canít make something out of nothing or if I can assume you know that but just donít want to believe it when it comes to the theory of the Big Bang, which that character Hawkins embraces.
    I don't need any schooling from you at all, on any subject thank you. Yes I have heard of the law entropy thanks, and it doesn't exclude the possibility of something from nothing, so maybe you need the schooling.
    If I choose to take schooling on the subject of Physics, I'd rather study the work of people like Hawkings thanks. He's not considered one of the greatest physicists ever for nothing...........where as you are renowned in the world of science for what exactly? You don't even have the interlectual and moral courage to drop the pretense of your reigion. You dismiss most of the Bible as alagorical and myth, while dogedly clinging to the most unlikely verse in the whole book, which is GEN 1:1.

    BTW, I've been to riffle ranges before, a long time ago. And cleaned fire arms, also a long time ago. I did it as a child in the ATC. I grew out of it though. Most people do in this country, grow out of the excitement of firing a gun. It's an overated expereince.
    "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours ." Steven Roberts

    The likelyhood of you being observed is directly proportionate to the stupidity of your actions.

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    Re: Stephen Hawking: God did not create Universe

    Dr. Hawkings has a great mind and is a great physicist, but he really is no more qualified to make such a judgement on the existence of God than the Man in the Moon. He neither has special insight nor special equipment and his observations on the universe are as limited by our science and technology as the rest of us. He is entitled to his opinion, but his opinion on God is no more valid than a 6 year old's.
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    Re: Stephen Hawking: God did not create Universe

    It's really a fairly ignorant statement by Hawking because conceptually, science simply cannot answer the question of God.

    This is primarily for two related reasons.

    (1) Science begins with the assumption that the universe can be explained purely by the interaction of mechanical forces (matter, gravity, etc.) without reference to any supernatural forces (i.e. God). Science is generally a deductive process, and as a deductive process you cannot prove your assumptions, it is a logical fallacy.

    a. Assume no supernatural forces.
    b. observe mechanical forces.
    c. conclude that mechanical forces explain everything and that supernatural forces don't exist.

    It simply doesn't work. Now your could argue that science often works in practice more by induction than deduction, but that tends to fail as well because of point two, below.

    (2) Science is inherently limited to observing how things already in existence interact with one another. In order for the scientific process to work, you have to begin with something you can observe in some way, even if that observation is purely mathematical theory. Therefore, conceptually science can never fully explain the universe because it can never answer the "something coming from nothing" question. For instance, assume Hawking is right and that matter can be created from nothing purely from the laws of physics. But there he isn't starting from nothing, he's starting from the laws of physics, which begs the question of where the laws of physics come from. So suppose another bright physicist is able to explain how the laws of physics come from the interaction of cosmic strings. Again, the next question would be where do the cosmic strings come from, and so on. It is an entirely irreducible problem for science because science must observe something in order to work. And it is in this space of something coming from nothing where most thinking people conceptualize God - the creative force of the universe in total, rather than some puppet master pulling the strings of the daily weather.

    In fact, I think that the above should be plain to someone as intelligent as Hawking, which is why I suspect one of two things going on. One possibility is that he simply fits the old adage that a specialist outside his area of specialty is no smarter than anyone else. The conception of "God' that Hawking has now "negated" is in fact a very primitive conception of a "God of the gaps," i.e. a supposition that God must exist because there are things about the physical world (like magnets) that cannot otherwise be explained. Most thinking people who believe in God don't pin their belief on this. That view hasn't really been popular since Darwin. So either Hawking is a complete noob at philosophy, or the other possibility is that his earlier belief in the possibility of God was disingenuous. That is, he never really thought of God as a possibility, but wanted to appear open-minded. So now that his theory on matter generation is more developed, he concludes that there is no God and people take note of his earlier open-mindedness and conclude that Hawking must be right about the whole God thing. Either way, Hawking isn't adding anything new to the philosophical debate on the existence of God.
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    Re: Stephen Hawking: God did not create Universe

    Flash, you're so good at trying to rubbish everyone else's opinions, even those of some of the leading scientists of our time, yet not once in all the dozens of posts you've written on religion and the creation of the universe have you even attempted to answer the question which has been put to you time after time. That is if you're so adamant that the views of eminent scientists like those of Stephen Hawking are wrong, let's hear your version, how did your precious god create everything, what from and how - and don't forget to let us know who created that god in the first place.

    But of course like every other time you've been asked this, you'll either come out with the vague generalisation of "god did it", or you'll ignore it or refuse to answer...... You've directly challenged Stephen Hawking's views; since this is a debating and discussion forum, give an equally detailed rebuttal or shut up.
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    Re: Stephen Hawking: God did not create Universe

    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    It's really a fairly ignorant statement by Hawking because conceptually, science simply cannot answer the question of God.

    This is primarily for two related reasons.

    (1) Science begins with the assumption that the universe can be explained purely by the interaction of mechanical forces (matter, gravity, etc.) without reference to any supernatural forces (i.e. God). Science is generally a deductive process, and as a deductive process you cannot prove your assumptions, it is a logical fallacy.

    a. Assume no supernatural forces.
    b. observe mechanical forces.
    c. conclude that mechanical forces explain everything and that supernatural forces don't exist.

    It simply doesn't work. Now your could argue that science often works in practice more by induction than deduction, but that tends to fail as well because of point two, below.

    (2) Science is inherently limited to observing how things already in existence interact with one another. In order for the scientific process to work, you have to begin with something you can observe in some way, even if that observation is purely mathematical theory. Therefore, conceptually science can never fully explain the universe because it can never answer the "something coming from nothing" question. For instance, assume Hawking is right and that matter can be created from nothing purely from the laws of physics. But there he isn't starting from nothing, he's starting from the laws of physics, which begs the question of where the laws of physics come from. So suppose another bright physicist is able to explain how the laws of physics come from the interaction of cosmic strings. Again, the next question would be where do the cosmic strings come from, and so on. It is an entirely irreducible problem for science because science must observe something in order to work. And it is in this space of something coming from nothing where most thinking people conceptualize God - the creative force of the universe in total, rather than some puppet master pulling the strings of the daily weather.

    In fact, I think that the above should be plain to someone as intelligent as Hawking, which is why I suspect one of two things going on. One possibility is that he simply fits the old adage that a specialist outside his area of specialty is no smarter than anyone else. The conception of "God' that Hawking has now "negated" is in fact a very primitive conception of a "God of the gaps," i.e. a supposition that God must exist because there are things about the physical world (like magnets) that cannot otherwise be explained. Most thinking people who believe in God don't pin their belief on this. That view hasn't really been popular since Darwin. So either Hawking is a complete noob at philosophy, or the other possibility is that his earlier belief in the possibility of God was disingenuous. That is, he never really thought of God as a possibility, but wanted to appear open-minded. So now that his theory on matter generation is more developed, he concludes that there is no God and people take note of his earlier open-mindedness and conclude that Hawking must be right about the whole God thing. Either way, Hawking isn't adding anything new to the philosophical debate on the existence of God.

    Is this coppied and pasted from a creationist web site? All sounds very farmiliar, and has been debunked time and again by real scientists.


    He is entitled to his opinion, but his opinion on God is no more valid than a 6 year old's.

    Read more: http://www.politic.co.uk/religion-fa...#ixzz0ySajHBS7

    A silly statement at best, but lets grant this assumption for the sake of argument. Niether is yours or any other religious person, seeing as the evidence for God is still zero.
    "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours ." Steven Roberts

    The likelyhood of you being observed is directly proportionate to the stupidity of your actions.

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    Re: Stephen Hawking: God did not create Universe

    Quote Originally Posted by Midas View Post
    Flash, you're so good at trying to rubbish everyone else's opinions, even those of some of the leading scientists of our time, yet not once in all the dozens of posts you've written on religion and the creation of the universe have you even attempted to answer the question which has been put to you time after time. That is if you're so adamant that the views of eminent scientists like those of Stephen Hawking are wrong, let's hear your version, how did your precious god create everything, what from and how - and don't forget to let us know who created that god in the first place.


    ...and you haven't answered the question I have dozens of times. If clowns like Hawkins are right with their silly myth like theories then show me the proof. There are some very basic questions that Hawkins can’t answer. Like what was the initiating event of the creation of the universe or what was around before his postulation of a Big Bang. He can’t even come close to answering where the material from the Big Bang came from but unlike you he even admits it.

    You think you have the right to demand proof from me while not having to provide any of your own.

    As I have said many times and you have ignored many times the proof of God is in the complexity of the universe and the lack of proof of an alternative. If there is an alternative to God that can explain how this universe came into being all you have to do is show it me. I have asked you many times for it but all I get is silence. It is unreasonable to believe that something as complex as this universe just sprang into existence one day out of nothing. Intelligent design is the only logical explanation. Nothing else makes sense given the level of real knowledge we have at this time. Maybe sometime in the future somebody will come up with the real proof but they haven’t yet. In the meantime if you believe in a secular creation you are believing in myth like theories based upon very few facts. What is even worst is that these myth like theories go against our understanding of the Laws of Physics. In you arrogant atheistic mind you can’t accept that because to do would bust your bubble and you would have to get your butt out of bed Sunday morning and go to church and you ain’t about to do that, are you?

    This idiot Hawkins have made the grand proclamation that God doesn’t exist then he must have some facts to back it up right? Show me his facts. If the facts don’t exist to back up his claim then he is talking out his ass, ain’t he? That is what I really asked in my previous post, isn't it?
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