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Thread: Tim LaHaye and Jerry B. Jenkins:Endtimes False Prophets??

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    Question Tim LaHaye and Jerry B. Jenkins:Endtimes False Prophets??

    After careful consideration, I have decided to enter this Topic in the Religious Christianity section rather than the Media or Coffee Lounge sections as, although the two titular authors of this post are writers of the famous 'Left Behind' series of novels about the apocalyptic endtime events based on the Book of Revelation, what I want to do here is not so much discuss the books (which can be done elsewhere) although you are free to bring them in here as well if you choose (assuming you have read any of them), but to discuss, analyse and dissect-much like you would do when examining an insect-the two authors in question: Dr. Tim LaHaye and Mr. Jerry B. Jenkins, or 'Tim and Jerry' as I like to refer to them.
    It is not necessary for you to be acquainted with these two towering giants of blockbuster Christian literature (I think) to join in as the subject broached (one of Jerry's favourite words) here can be approached from various angles other than a general readership.
    This is a debate remember, so do not be afraid to blaspheme. But if you do, please do so tactfully, or you may find yourself being told to go to The Other Place instead, and I would much rather not lose you to another discussion, so I aim to make this one interesting.
    I want to present you with two (2) quotes, one from a novel's text, and another from the back cover of another author's book as quoted by one of these authors; and also with a question for discussion about the two characters I am bringing under the glare of this particular spotlight: by that, I mean the writers, not the fictitious ones they have created.
    Quote#1: (From Left Behind Book 4: 'Soul Harvest', chapter 1, page 15-the last line of the chapter, basically.)

    "He'd seen awful things in his life, but the carnage at this airport was going to top them all. A shelter, even the Antichrist's, sounded better than this."

    Quote#2: (From Back Cover of 'Prophet' novel by Frank E. Peretti.)

    "Frank Peretti kicked open the doors that all of us Christian novelists are passing through today. We owe him a huge debt."-JERRY B JENKINS Author, The Left Behind Series.

    Both Tim and Jerry (as I call them) and Frank Peretti belong to the Christian Writers book scene.
    What is wrong with the two quotes above?
    #1. If the purpose of the story is how to be protected from the power of antiChrist, then the last place place on earth you would want to be is seeking refuge under the shelter of the antiChrist. This seems a contradictory phrase to what Christianity supposedly stands for.
    #2.Have Christian writers just discovered the freedom and light and liberty to write about things that the Bible itself said centuries and more ago, the dark side of supernatural experiences, or is it a case of them inventing the wheel and discovering fire for the first time this late on in the development of fiction-writing?
    Finally, I wanted to ask whether you think that these two authors, Tim and Jerry, are out to deceive as many readers as possible with their own cash-in versions of the Book of Revelation with false prophecy in the guise of blockbuster fiction, or whether they have have an angle on the truth that we all should sit up and take notice of-or ignore it at our own peril; I'm talking about the events described in the Book of Revelation which these two men have elaborated upon in their 'Left Behind' fiction series.
    Reading maketh the man.

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    Re: Tim LaHaye and Jerry B. Jenkins:Endtimes False Prophets??

    This could be interesting.
    A first minor point; I fail to see how one can blaspheme "tactfully". As I am no doubt sure you are aware I for one am not about to start affording the immoral, unethical, fraudulent preachings of Christianity any undue respect or tactfullness. There's nothing tactful about the writings of these two frauds, or the ludicrous movies they have made.

    What amazes me is the size of the movement that these two odius men have created, especially given that a lot of their interpretations of revelation (which theologically needs to be interpreted with much of the rest of the Bible, especially the book of Danniel, Isaiah, Jeramiah, the appocolyptic rantings of Jesus in Matthew, and the appoclyptic rants of Paul and Peter), are completely unbiblical. This fraudulent movement has tens of millions of followers, and is centered mainly around the eschatological prophesies of the Bible, and the particular sinister doctrine of the rapture.
    Proponents of this nonsense include the most influential evangelical ministers in the USA. The odius Pastor John Hagee preaches his "rapture ready" sermons to hundreds of millions on TBN, as do frauds such as Benni Hinn, Rienhard Bonke, Pat Roberts, Paula White, Creflow Dollar and many more.
    There's little to discuss about the authers in my view, other than to point out that they are no different to any other religious fraudsters that claim to have understanding and knowledge no one else has access to. They've fooled a lot of gullible people and made hundreds of millions of $ in the process.

    The theological schools of thought on how the bizzare ranting that is the book of revelation should be interpreted are varied both very wide and wildly.
    Here in Europe in mainstream Anglican, Catholic and Orthodox churches, you'll be lucky to ever hear the book of revelation even mentioned, let alone sermon preached on it. The more evangelical and fundamentalist churches and denominations treat it much as the Americans do.
    In more mainstream churches, you'll here the mention of the odd verse here and there if you listen for it, the most common being Rev 3:20 (look it up). It always amused me to hear Church ministers quote this particular verse as an evangelical text. It is in actual fact part of an admonition to the Church, not an evangelical text at all. For the religious novice to place their trust in their minister or pastor when to comes to theological understanding of the Bible is very nieve. Most of them only know the parts they studdied in their theological seminaries. Pastors of the less organized "happy clappy" style churches that don't require any theological training or qualifications to appoint themselves as pastors of their flock are even worse. Most of them couldn't quote you more than 20 verses from the Bible, let alone offer any meaningful understanding of complicated books like Revelation. I once asked a "deacon" of one such church, "what's your take on the book of revelation?" His answer....."I don't think God meant us to understand it, so I don't concern myself with it". The role of a deacon in a Church is to handle the business of running the Church, and to teach the laity in the absense of the pastor.

    When reading the book of Revelation, it's worth baring in mind certain factors about the auther. The auther is thought to be by the vast majority of theologians the Appostle John. According to his own Gospel account, he claimed to be the appostle that Jesus loved the most, and was closest to. When Jesus died, he passed over responsibility for looking after his mother and sibblings to John.
    At the time of writing revelation (late 1st century), John had been expelled and put in exile on the Island of Patmos by the Church. I highlight this fact for reasons to be made clear. John had been involved in much quaralling with the emerging Church, and it's falling away from the pure message of the Gospel, in favour of the introduction of a whole mish mash of ritual, Jewish tradition (the Mosaic law, water baptism, fasting, tything etc), Greek and Roman pagan tradition, even the possibility of human sacrifice.
    John was extremely embittered, isolated and ostrasized. It's also worth noting that woodland on Patmos was very rich in the kind of hallucinoenic fungi known as "magic mushrooms".
    The first 3 chapters of Revelation are a very angry and embittered condemnation of the Church, as though spoken by Jesus through John.
    The rest reads as a very disjointed hallucinagenic rant, with some ambiguous links and references to older scriptures (the appostles would have known these ancient texts almost off by heart), no apparent chronology, with a seathing eschatological theme to it.
    I think it's clear on close scrutiny that this particularly bizzare text was a drug induced rant against the Church by an elderly embittered man in exile.
    Throughout the existence of the Church, there has always been heated theological debate about what this book means, whether it should have been in the Canon (Luther excluded it from his Bible), whether the prophecies in it are yet to be fullfilled or whether they have already happened (the destruction of Jerusalem etc).

    The book of revelation, and it's most common interpretation raises some moral and ethical questions about Christianity. It's clear that the desire of the evangelical that shares the interpretation most commonly given of revelation, is for everything to end, and the sooner the better. They yearn to be raptured into the sky to meet with their savior, while the rest of us suffer the horror described in revelation.
    "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours ." Steven Roberts

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    Re: Tim LaHaye and Jerry B. Jenkins:Endtimes False Prophets??

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveUK View Post
    At the time of writing revelation (late 1st century), John had been expelled and put in exile on the Island of Patmos by the Church. I highlight this fact for reasons to be made clear. John had been involved in much quaralling with the emerging Church, and it's falling away from the pure message of the Gospel, in favour of the introduction of a whole mish mash of ritual, Jewish tradition (the Mosaic law, water baptism, fasting, tything etc), Greek and Roman pagan tradition, even the possibility of human sacrifice.
    John was extremely embittered, isolated and ostrasized. It's also worth noting that woodland on Patmos was very rich in the kind of hallucinoenic fungi known as "magic mushrooms".
    The first 3 chapters of Revelation are a very angry and embittered condemnation of the Church, as though spoken by Jesus through John.
    The rest reads as a very disjointed hallucinagenic rant, with some ambiguous links and references to older scriptures (the appostles would have known these ancient texts almost off by heart), no apparent chronology, with a seathing eschatological theme to it.
    I think it's clear on close scrutiny that this particularly bizzare text was a drug induced rant against the Church by an elderly embittered man in exile.
    Throughout the existence of the Church, there has always been heated theological debate about what this book means, whether it should have been in the Canon (Luther excluded it from his Bible), whether the prophecies in it are yet to be fullfilled or whether they have already happened (the destruction of Jerusalem etc).

    The book of revelation, and it's most common interpretation raises some moral and ethical questions about Christianity. It's clear that the desire of the evangelical that shares the interpretation most commonly given of revelation, is for everything to end, and the sooner the better. They yearn to be raptured into the sky to meet with their savior, while the rest of us suffer the horror described in revelation.
    I have to say this is the first time I've come across any suggestion that John might have been under some form of hallucinogenic when writing parts of the Book of Revelations, however it's certainly consistent with the writing style, and there have been other historical precedents. I know it's away from the topic as a whole, however it's emerged that the Greek Oracle of Delphi was probably in a similar state when giving out her own pronouncements - tests have shown that there is a natural source of ethylene gas in the cave where she's known to have lived, and at times the concentration is enough to induce a semi-drunken state to anyone exposed to it for a period of time. There's also considerable evidence that the so-called witches of the medieval and later periods were perhaps under the influence of ergotamine, an alkaloid with similar effects to LSD, which is derived from a fungus which grows on rye and related grains. Instances of witches being reported and tried increased substantially following wet summers when the grain might not have been fully dry when harvested, thus encouraging the growth of the ergot fungus. Circumstantial, but still... Just thought you might be interested.

    As to Revelation as a whole, like any historical document it has to be read in the context of the time it was written, both socially and politically. When it was written the early Christians were being persecuted ruthlessly by the Romans and many were put to death simply because of their faith, so any document urging them to be wary of their enemy, i.e., Rome, had to be phrased very carefully indeed in a way that only followers of Jesus could easily understand. Once this is accepted the whole book takes on a very different meaning, and there are clear references to both Rome itself, as in the repeated use of the word 'seven' - Rome is built on seven hills - and to the Christian's arch enemy Nero, who is referred to as 666 by using the ancient Hebrew code of gematria, or assigning a numerical symbol to words - 666 directly translates to Nero's name.

    Quite how today's modern preachers, virtually all American, can turn the content of the Book of Revelations into the rubbish they promote is beyond me - or at least the naive belief their followers have in them is beyond me - but then Americans don't have their stereotypical reputation for gullibility for nothing!
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    Re: Tim LaHaye and Jerry B. Jenkins:Endtimes False Prophets??

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveUK View Post
    It's clear that the desire of the evangelical that shares the interpretation most commonly given of revelation, is for everything to end, and the sooner the better. They yearn to be raptured into the sky to meet with their savior, while the rest of us suffer the horror described in revelation.
    A point made very astutely in the title and subtitle of the book by Nicholas Guyatt called 'Have a Nice Doomsday:Why Millions of Americans are Looking Forward to the End of the World', which book you might find an interesting read.
    Reading maketh the man.

    A Global Socialist Visionary is one who envisions socialism globally, but unlike the Tories goes about the business of effecting its reality and does not settle on its laurels wishfully thinking and hoping for the Status Quo to work. We believe in Change where it's needed, such as where areas are most impoverished and there is a possibility for regeneration. Join us...or inevitably die through social malnutrition!

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    Re: Tim LaHaye and Jerry B. Jenkins:Endtimes False Prophets??

    RE:Midas' last post.
    I have heard tell that the practice of narcosis has been among the legions of Satanists for centuries, and this includes witches.
    I don't know whether a man like the writer John who practised and preached holiness and purity would be among such substance-users/abusers, or whether being surrounded by magic mushrooms (hallucinogenic toadstools) was not merely a test of his holiness and that he was to exercise abstinence, or whether they gave off a pungent aromatic atmosphere that even he could not avoid, being entrapped there on that isle. We have to sometimes give people the benefit of the doubt as to what they actually did, so let's split it 50/50 for the sake of theory and argument:if there was evidence that John did not partake of the mushrooms, would either of you have more confidence in the Book of Revelation?
    Reading maketh the man.

    A Global Socialist Visionary is one who envisions socialism globally, but unlike the Tories goes about the business of effecting its reality and does not settle on its laurels wishfully thinking and hoping for the Status Quo to work. We believe in Change where it's needed, such as where areas are most impoverished and there is a possibility for regeneration. Join us...or inevitably die through social malnutrition!

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    Re: Tim LaHaye and Jerry B. Jenkins:Endtimes False Prophets??

    I don't want to speak too soon, but here we are having another interesting theological debate, and the usual suspects are conspicuous by their absence. Maybe they don't want to show their lamentable lack of knowledge about the faith they suposedly base their lives on?
    "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours ." Steven Roberts

    The likelyhood of you being observed is directly proportionate to the stupidity of your actions.

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    Re: Tim LaHaye and Jerry B. Jenkins:Endtimes False Prophets??

    I do protest even so that maybe Tim and Jerry have got at least some things right, and it is after all categorically endtimes fiction (although I see many of the factual 'truth' books about the end of the world as fiction as well, and they all contradict each other-the only ones that have any common correlative refernce point are the writers who belong to certain schools of eschatological thought such as the Historicists, Futurists, etc, but even these groups contradict each other) so let's call fiction fiction. For someone to have actual interpretative knowledge of Revelation and who or what the Beasts are, they must be extraordinarily gifted or blessed.
    Incidentally, Jerry, the person who performed the writing role for the series (under the assistant dictation and tuition of Tim, a scholarly qualified man, says that he like the antiChrist character Nicolae Carpathia the best out of all his creation, it has been reported.
    Reading maketh the man.

    A Global Socialist Visionary is one who envisions socialism globally, but unlike the Tories goes about the business of effecting its reality and does not settle on its laurels wishfully thinking and hoping for the Status Quo to work. We believe in Change where it's needed, such as where areas are most impoverished and there is a possibility for regeneration. Join us...or inevitably die through social malnutrition!

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    Re: Tim LaHaye and Jerry B. Jenkins:Endtimes False Prophets??

    Quote Originally Posted by Janus View Post
    RE:Midas' last post.
    I have heard tell that the practice of narcosis has been among the legions of Satanists for centuries, and this includes witches.
    I don't know whether a man like the writer John who practised and preached holiness and purity would be among such substance-users/abusers, or whether being surrounded by magic mushrooms (hallucinogenic toadstools) was not merely a test of his holiness and that he was to exercise abstinence, or whether they gave off a pungent aromatic atmosphere that even he could not avoid, being entrapped there on that isle. We have to sometimes give people the benefit of the doubt as to what they actually did, so let's split it 50/50 for the sake of theory and argument:if there was evidence that John did not partake of the mushrooms, would either of you have more confidence in the Book of Revelation?
    The only confidence I have in the Book of Revelations, regardless of the state that John was when he wrote it, is in its original context, i.e., a rather long and convoluted coded rant against the Romans and their empire as headed by Nero as a warning to other Christians to basically keep their heads down. To try to read anything more into it than that is based on nothing other than reading in nearly 2,000 years of subsequent history and making completely unsubstantiated leaps of unintended association, which has incidentally been done many times during that time, all to no end.
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    Re: Tim LaHaye and Jerry B. Jenkins:Endtimes False Prophets??

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveUK View Post
    I don't want to speak too soon, but here we are having another interesting theological debate, and the usual suspects are conspicuous by their absence. Maybe they don't want to show their lamentable lack of knowledge about the faith they suposedly base their lives on?
    hey there is no need to start insulting folk. Religious folk on the whole dont debate their faith because what they believe is absolute in their minds. Antitheists cant disprove the existence of a 'god' or creator beyond all reasonable doubt, so the debate is pretty much futile and worthless.
    Vote BNP

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    Re: Tim LaHaye and Jerry B. Jenkins:Endtimes False Prophets??

    Quote Originally Posted by Janus View Post
    ; I'm talking about the events described in the Book of Revelation which these two men have elaborated upon in their 'Left Behind' fiction series.

    I have read the complete "Left Behind" series. It was actually a struggle to get through the series because it was the same old thing book after book.

    While it was a mildly interesting SHTF series it was hardly mainstream Christian doctrine. Many Christian sects simply do not believe in the Doomsday interpretation of the Book of Revelation. My sect Lutheranism for instance, has categorical denied the end of days interpretation of Revelation. There is strong evidence that the scripture was referring to the Roman Empire at the Beast.

    Here is a more lengthy discussion if you are interested:

    http://www.issuesetcarchive.org/issues_site/resource/archives/lessing2.htm




    IV. Conclusions

    The clear witness of the New Testament is that the person of Jesus Christ is the interpretive key to the Old Testament (Luke 24:25-27, 44: John 5:39, 46; 2 Cor. 1:19-20), and indeed to all of Scripture. Specifically, the atoning sacrifice of Jesus on the cross for the sin of the world is the chief teaching of Holy Scripture and the true source of Christian joy and confidence. As St. Paul says, "I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified" (I Cor. 2:2). This message is the only hope of salvation for a lost and condemned humanity.

    That is to say, all biblical revelation converges in Christ and is given direction from Him. He is the cornerstone, the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. All things were created by him and for him. He is the very substance, marrow, soul and scope of the whole Bible. The Left Behind series fails to do justice to the Christ-centeredness of Scripture by encouraging people to fix their eyes on current events in the Middle East, the nuclear build up in other nations and the ongoing crisis in Israel, rather than upon Christ alone (Heb. 12:1-3).

    Although the Left Behind series does raise legitimate questions about the crucial importance of faith in Christ, some Christians have been shaken in their faith because of the constant onslaught of pessimism in this literature. LaHaye and Jenkins tend to place more emphasis on fear, evil and judgment than they do on "righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit" (Rom. 14:17) that is indicative of the Gospel.

    An example of this pessimistic attitude that is fostered by adherents of Left Behind is that of John Hagee (author of From Daniel to Doomsday: The Countdown Has Begun and end-times novels such as Blood Avenger). Hagee told a BBC interviewer that the end-times began on September 11, 2001. He said, "We are seeing, in my judgment, the birth pangs that will be called in the future the beginning of the end. I believe in my mind that the Third World War has begun. I believe it began on 9/11" (BBC radio "Analysis: American's New Christian Zionists," May 7, 2002).

    To be sure, an important aspect of the New Testament witness regarding the Second Coming of Christ is Law (e.g. Matt. 25:41). It contains strong warnings concerning God's wrath and his judgment of sinners. But his Law serves the primary message of the Gospel, to the end that Christians "encourage one another as we see all the more the Day approaching" (Heb. 10:25). This encouragement is based upon the promise that Christ's "perfect love casts out fear" (I John 4:18).

    Current events are not the primary indication that the Church is now living in the last days. In fact, since the first Advent of Jesus (Heb. 1:1-2) and Pentecost (Acts 2:17) the Church has understood herself as awaiting the imminent return of her Lord, "like a thief in the night" (I Thes. 5:2). The Second Advent of Jesus will be the end of this age; not the beginning of its greatest glory. In fact, teaching that believers will be raptured out of suffering encourages a false hope of exemption from intensified persecution toward the end (cf. Acts 14:22; II Corinthians 12:1-10). In fact, the consistent teaching of the New Testament is that Christians are not only to expect suffering (e.g., Mark 13:9; Luke 21:12; John 16:33), they may rejoice in them, "because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope. And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us" (Rom. 5:3-5).

    The teaching that God promises through the "rapture" to rescue true believers from the suffering of the "great tribulation" of the end times also raises troublesome questions about God's care and compassion for the millions of believers throughout history (and in our present time) who have endured (and are enduring) unspeakable persecution and tribulation as a result of their faithful witness to Christ and his Gospel. Scripture nowhere promises believers an "escape" from trials and sorrows. Rather it teaches that it is Christ himself who will "sustain you to the end" (1 Cor. 1:8) and "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness" (2 Cor. 12:9).

    The Left Behind system of theology demonstrates a longing for concrete manifestations of God's presence as adherents believe that such signs will take place during the seven-year tribulation, and especially in the 1,000 year millennium. However, 1 John 5:7-8 states: "For there are three that testify: the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement." By means of the Spirit-inspired Old and New Testaments Scriptures, the water of baptism, as well as the true body and blood of Jesus in Holy Communion, God testifies to being present with His Church right now. The assurance of God's working in the world is therefore not based upon the return to Old Testament types, but rather on the sure Word of the promise of forgiveness imparted in the means of grace, the Gospel and the Sacraments.

    Like other erroneous apocalyptic views, LaHaye and Jenkins rely to some degree on date-setting for anticipating the end. In the novels, for example, Left Behind believers are able to predict with great certainty and accuracy impending historical events, including the very day of Christ's return to begin the 1,000 year reign. According to Scripture, however, no one knows the day or the hour when Christ will return. For example, Jesus says, "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only" (Matt. 24:36). While the series intends and attempts to point people to Christ alone for salvation, its preoccupation with the rapture and tribulation and earthly reign tends to distract from the chief message of the apostles; "Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified" (1 Cor. 1:22-23). And it is in this cross that Christians find their one true source of confidence, security and peace, even as they pray, "Come, Lord Jesus" (Rev. 22:20).
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